how to calumniate a foreigner (was: gib nazis keine chance! (was: FIY N...

[Doug Millison]

Kai:
> "a german working with qbl? must be nazi
>  occultism!"

In the interest of honesty, I note that I did *not* say this, this is Kai's
own formulation. I do urge any who are interested in the connections
between occultism and Nazi ideology to consult Goodrick-Clarke's book, The
Occult Roots of Nazism, or the primary sources he cites in his
bibliography. Goodrick-Clarke offers a compelling argument to support the
thesis that Nazi ideology stems at least in part from the theosophical
spirituality  early 20th century.  Given Pynchon's use of occult elements
in GR and elsewhere, I believe that this is a legitimate object of
discussion for Pynchon-L. Based on my own research, and that of a friend
and independent scholar, Peter Smith of Springfield, PA, I add that much of
contemporary New Age occultism traces its origins to the same source. This
is not to say that New Age equals Nazi ideology, but you can trace them
back to a common source. I began research in this area when a friend showed
me some connections between Nazi ideology and some New Age occult projects,
and I wanted to see if any of the spiritualality projects in which I have a
personal interest carried that taint. But don't take my word for it, do
your own homework.

I will also say that prior to Kai's entry to the Pynchon-L forum, there
were discussions about whether or not Pynchon-L should become a moderated
discussion. Nobody called me a Nazi in those discussions when I argued that
we consider making it a moderated list, although many argued heatedly that
moderation would be wrong (and, it must be noted, some argued for
moderation as well, both on-list and offlist), generally supporting this
view by saying something like "Pynchon wouldn't want it." None other than
Chris K, in arguing against formal list moderation, encouraged individuals
to speak up if the discussion was getting ugly, and encourage participants
to be civil. Back then, arguments of substance could and did take place,
with participants supporting and defending opposing points of view, and
flame wars did not erupt every time; although, it is true, that many a
flame war occurred, and that I took part in some of them, along with some
others who still participate on Pynchon-L (you know who you are).  I recall
(from the archives) the long exchange that took part between Jules Siegel
and many others -- including some folks who continue to participate here --
in the fall of '96 (just before I subscribed), which went through a long
period of discussion and debate before completely degenerating as a result
of Siegel's increasingly insulting posts.  I recall the exchanges with
Siegel that took place in '97, when his book Lineland was published, and
when several of those participants spoke up again; I also took part in that
'97 discussion, using what I know from a 20-year journalism career to
analyze the way Siegel reported and argued his story in Lineland; this,
too, degenerated into a flame war, and it ended when a Pynchon-L
participant said, Enough already, and it stopped -- behavior that would
probably draw the "list Nazi" label today.  There have been many other
heated discussions that finally degenerated into flame wars -- I'm sure
many of you remember the way Matthew Wiener used to get such conversations
going, and many of you know how easily you were sucked into them, as I was
on occasion.

In fact, there are many freewheeling and lively moderated discussions on
the Internet.  Moderation does not mean censorship. In my experience  it
means that the participants agree to participate in a civil discussion, to
take responsibility for their words (by being known by their real names at
least to the list moderators if not to the list as a whole), and to refrain
from ad hominem attacks; it also means that a moderator chooses to post, or
not post, particular messages; in some cases, virtually all messages go
through, in other cases, moderators are more selective. PSYARTS and H-Film
are two such discussions, and based on my present and past experience I can
say that they rival Pynchon-L for liveliness and, generally, far surpass
Pynchon-L  in terms of substance.

I apologize if I have offended Kai. I do not like being called a Nazi, and
I responded in anger when he called me one. I confess that I don't fully
understand the point he's trying to make about Germans and their
persecution of the Jews, but it sounds  obfuscating and minimizing; in the
context of the ongoing neo-Nazi revival in Germanyand elsewhere (including
the U.S.), it also sounds, to me, ugly.  I guess I'm just a "never forget"
kind of guy -- with regard to the Holocaust, to the genocide of the native
Americans, & etc.

Thanks,
Doug

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