pynchon-l-digest V2 #1794

[Doug Millison]

"Jane":
"Of course, but it's supported by the text and that makes it
a better opinion than those that are not and can not be
supported by the texts. Right? "

Not necessarily. I've read articles that discuss the political content of
Pynchon's fiction with arguments based in close textual analysis.

"Jane"
"Not sure about that. Can you give examples? This is not
quite what I remember or have read in the critical
literature. "

You and your examples.  Why don't you provide an example of a text that
supports your contradiction of the point I made and I'll respond to that?
Harold Bloom's reaction to Vineland would be one, if I remember correctly.
PN published an article that provided an overview of Vineland's reception, I
believe; PN did the same for M&D.


"Jane"
"saying that Pynchon includes political
material in his art or that he has sympathy for USA Lefty
politics is one thing, saying that he advocates collective
political struggle is quite another."

I haven't said Pynchon advocates collective political struggle. I said he
doesn't debunk it, that he depicts it with sympathy and understanding, that
he treats its history with respect, that his fiction reflects the bitter
truth of the way that protest is overwhelmed by Their force.

"Jane"
"Where is the evidence in Pynchon's own texts?"

Read Vineland, where Pynchon spends hundreds of pages to tell the story of a
complex woman, Frenesi. Read the passages in GR that deal with Leni. The
author seems to show a high degree of sympathy for these characters. I don't
have the books with me.  But, despite her betrayal, Pynchon puts Frenesi
back in the arms of a loving family at the end of Vineland, her daughter
still loves her despite having learned about the way F betrayed her friends
and comrades. The GR reader sees a sensitive Leni struggling and a selfish
Pokler poking her; the author's sympathies seem to be with her.


"Jane"
"The protests are not separate from THEM to begin with. So
THEY are not controlling the Betrayal, the Betrayal is
intrinsic to the relationship. It's Frenesi love of the 
cop with a club, her daughter's fashion is mini-skirts 
coming back and it too is part of the family of Leftys."

It's more complicated than that.  Look at Dr. Frankenstein and his Monster
-- a unity? Only if you elevate yourself until you can see them merge. From
another perspective, the Monster is clearly trying to kill its creator, they
are distinct actors. From one perspective, They are controlling Us, with
some help from Us, witting or unwitting.  From another perspective (looking
back at the world of the living from the other side, maybe), They and Us are
one. Pynchon provides multiple perspectives in his fiction; that's part of
what makes responding to his writing so much fun.  Frenesi isn't the
producer of the cop shows she loves, or of the clothes her daughter wants to
wear or the magazines that help convince the daughter it's cool to wear
them. At some level, of course Frenesi is part of and complicit in the
actions of society viewed as a collective, but on the street a
flesh-and-blood policeman is waving a real club at her;  she's also quite
obviously mistreated and manipulated and brainwashed by Brock (possibly a
wicked commentary on Patty Hearst here), go up to 50,000 feet and yes the
dots called Brock and Frenesi will merge but that doesn't mean that on the
ground they aren't two actors.

We don't get the sequel, don't get to see what Prairie does with what she's
learned from Frenesi's story -- Vineland's ambiguous ending leaves that up
in the air, which is where Pynchon leaves us with regard to whether or not
the 60s rebellion was fruitless. The depth of the bitterness he seems to
express in Vineland reveals, to me at least, an equally deep belief that the
60s rebellion had a chance, and he puts enormous force at Their disposal in
suppressing it (as P does with Slothrop in GR).  To get people to do what
They want people to do, They have to mess with them at a fundamental level
from early childhood on -- We must be pretty powerful if that's what it
takes to keep Us under control, happy manageable consumers applauding as
that Rocket screams across the sky, enjoying our mindless pleasures.