Vineland & Left is Right

Mon Apr 30 22:05:05 CDT 2001

Doug Millison wrote:
> 
> "Jane":
> "Of course, but it's supported by the text and that makes it
> a better opinion than those that are not and can not be
> supported by the texts. Right? "
> 
> Not necessarily. I've read articles that discuss the political content of
> Pynchon's fiction with arguments based in close textual analysis.

I think you misread. My point was that those critics that
provide close textual support are better than those that
don't. So what I'm looking for is a close critical reading,
yours or another's, that supports the arguments you are
putting forward. 

> 
> "Jane"
> "Not sure about that. Can you give examples? This is not
> quite what I remember or have read in the critical
> literature. "
> 
> You and your examples.  Why don't you provide an example of a text that
> supports your contradiction of the point I made and I'll respond to that?
> Harold Bloom's reaction to Vineland would be one, if I remember correctly.
> PN published an article that provided an overview of Vineland's reception, I
> believe; PN did the same for M&D.

OK, whatever,  it's not a good argument anyway. It's only
diverting our attention from the texts that Pynchon has
written. 

> "Jane"
> "saying that Pynchon includes political
> material in his art or that he has sympathy for USA Lefty
> politics is one thing, saying that he advocates collective
> political struggle is quite another."
> 
> I haven't said Pynchon advocates collective political struggle. 

OK

I said he
> doesn't debunk it, that he depicts it with sympathy and understanding, that
> he treats its history with respect, that his fiction reflects the bitter
> truth of the way that protest is overwhelmed by Their force.

I disagree. 

> "Jane"
> "The protests are not separate from THEM to begin with. So
> THEY are not controlling the Betrayal. The Betrayal is
> intrinsic to the relationship. It's Frenesi's love of the
> cop with a club, her daughter's fashion is mini-skirts
> coming back and it too is part of the family of Leftys."
> 
> It's more complicated than that.  

Oh yes, it's very complex, but not unclear.

Look at Dr. Frankenstein and his Monster
> -- a unity? Only if you elevate yourself until you can see them merge. From
> another perspective, the Monster is clearly trying to kill its creator, they
> are distinct actors. From one perspective, They are controlling Us, with
> some help from Us, witting or unwitting.  From another perspective (looking
> back at the world of the living from the other side, maybe), They and Us are
> one. Pynchon provides multiple perspectives in his fiction; that's part of
> what makes responding to his writing so much fun.  Frenesi isn't the
> producer of the cop shows she loves, or of the clothes her daughter wants to
> wear or the magazines that help convince the daughter it's cool to wear
> them. At some level, of course Frenesi is part of and complicit in the
> actions of society viewed as a collective, but on the street a
> flesh-and-blood policeman is waving a real club at her;  she's also quite
> obviously mistreated and manipulated and brainwashed by Brock (possibly a
> wicked commentary on Patty Hearst here), go up to 50,000 feet and yes the
> dots called Brock and Frenesi will merge but that doesn't mean that on the
> ground they aren't two actors.

> 
> We don't get the sequel, don't get to see what Prairie does with what she's
> learned from Frenesi's story -- Vineland's ambiguous ending leaves that up
> in the air, which is where Pynchon leaves us with regard to whether or not
> the 60s rebellion was fruitless. The depth of the bitterness he seems to
> express in Vineland reveals, to me at least, an equally deep belief that the
> 60s rebellion had a chance, and he puts enormous force at Their disposal in
> suppressing it (as P does with Slothrop in GR).  To get people to do what
> They want people to do, They have to mess with them at a fundamental level
> from early childhood on -- We must be pretty powerful if that's what it
> takes to keep Us under control, happy manageable consumers applauding as
> that Rocket screams across the sky, enjoying our mindless pleasures.

Why does Frenesi like men in uniform? Her daughter likes
them too. What about Frenesi's mother? When one rebels
against the System in the USA, as the 1960s youth did, it's
a rebellion in  large measure also against parental power
and control. But in Frenesi's case, her family has a long
tradition of Lefty politics, so her rebellion against the
System would not also be a rebellion against her family. To
rebel against her family she would need to betray the cause
of the Left and involve herself with the powerful system.
She does. Then she marries Zoyd, a hippy. Then she takes
off, leaves here child. 
The child is  to be cared for by Zoyd and her mother. She
can't handle the family life. 