Karma my ass! Quail, Davemarc, Kurt, and Doug

[Paul Mackin]

Thanks, Thomas. Despite what I may have said earlier I now think it is
necessary to denounce the karma doodoo  with seriousness. Apologies to real
buddhists and hindus but the wongheadedness of the doctirne being purveyed
becomes if anything even more demonstrable when Holocaust victims are
brought into the story. . I suppose the usual denials will now ensue and you
will be accused of misrepresenting the words of the poster. .

            P.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Eckhardt" <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>
To: <barbara100 at jps.net>
Cc: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Karma my ass! Quail, Davemarc, Kurt, and Doug


> Barbara wrote:
>
>
> > I think I could accept the German Buddhist's remark even as you state
it,
> > though.  He
> > said "the karmic debt of the Jews," but did you make a line of
distinction
> > where maybe he didn't? Could he have meant that because the Jews are a
part
> > of this world, this system, and their forebearers ran a show of force
and
> > destruction (like virtually every other people on the planet) they
should
> > expect (as we should all expect) ugly repercussions somewhere down the
line?
> > I doubt the monk would cite some specific blame to the Jewish people.
That,
> > I'd guess, is what a Western mind would try to cite.  (Is this what
Pynchon
> > is on to in his Reader's obsession with Cause and Effect, I wonder...)
The
> > holocaust is a karmic debt. How could it be anything else? All bad
things
> > that happen are a karmic debt.
>
> Dear Barbara,
>
> are you saying the Jewish people, to use that term, just payed their debts
> during the Holocaust? And that everybody in the world who is "part of this
> world, this system" should just accept being killed because there is
always a
> karmic debt to be paid? What exactly do you mean by "part of this world,
this
> system"? Everybody on the planet? Is this about original sin? And are you
saying
> that somebody else who might have the means to stop the killing should
accept
> mass murder as a payment of the "karmic debt" as well instead of taking
military
> action? If so: This is indeed very close to Ghandi's view of the Holocaust
which
> I referred to a few weeks ago. And, with all due respect, it is as
idiotic.
>
> Thomas
>
> P.S. If some German called the Holocaust "an ugly repercussion somewhere
down
> the line" of bad things forebearers of the adherents of the Jewish faith
had
> done in the course of history this would be the end of the discussion and
of any
> friendly relationship that might have existed before. I am willing to give
you
> the benefit of the doubt, if only because I perhaps don't really
understand what
> you are saying, much less the ideas behind it, but generally I find your
> statement outrageous.
>
> P.P.S. "All bad things that happen are a karmic debt." Starving children?
The
> Afghan people? Rape, torture, murder are ok because everybody is guilty,
if not
> individually then because of what his/her forebearers have done? I know I
am
> getting a little sarcastic here, but would you care to explain?
>
>
>
>
> > And all good things that happen--well, I'm
> > not sure what those are called.  But either way, good or bad or whatever
you
> > wanna call it, there's no escape from an effect. What we do matters--End
of
> > concept!  How it matters, and whether it matters good or matters bad,
that's
> > for us to learn--as individuals and as nations and beings of the Earth
and
> > Universe. The holocaust happened.  Bad things like it continue to
happen.
> > Every day, every hour, on every level of life, bad shit happens. Good
things
> > happen too, of course, but they're not weighing heavy enough as far as
I'm
> > concerned. (Davemarc, another example of throwing in my weight).   On
the
> > level I'm talking about here, we pay our karmic debt over and over again
in
> > Death. Two-hundred million in the last century alone killed pre-maturely
in
> > the course of War!  And we will continue to pay (disproportionately, no
> > doubt,  "justly" and "unjustly" alike) until we STOP inflicting misery
on
> > one another. It's an amazingly simple concept if you think about it.
I'm
> > amazed that people have such a hard time with it?
> >
> > Doug, thank you for your kind thoughts and words; and thank you for your
> > VLVL posts. I'm not quite far enough along to know what all you were
talking
> > about, but you make me want to hurry up and read it. So I'll go now, to
find
> > karma in Vineland!  Thank you too for the weather report. That was so
> > touching.
> > And you were right.  We got soaked yesterday at the soccer game.
> >
> > Barbara
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The Great Quail <quail at libyrinth.com>
> > To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:59 PM
> > Subject: Karma my ass!
>