Pacifists at War!

[davemarc]

From: <barbara100 at jps.net>

> Well what's got you so pissed off you're dragging me out of the archives?

Here are some reasons:  thousands of my neighbors died on 9/11, thousands
more of my neighbors were displaced and/or put out of work as a result of
9/11, now there's a military action spreading the poison of violence even
more, and for weeks the self-described pacifists on this list have
essentially responded to this by sniping at each other and entrenching
themselves in personal verbal battles that, to me, just continue to spread
the poison.

> And why didn't you say anything then?

I was in shock, not only from the extreme violence of the day but also from
returning home to read responses such as this:  "America must have an
enormous karmic debt to pay. Let's just pay it and learn our lessons." My
posts at that time basically had to do with asking p-listers to stop from
getting into a sniping fest (thanks to everyone for pretty much doing that
for a couple of weeks) and following-up on questions about the well-being of
list members based in NYC.
.
> Holding a grudge all this time.for heaven's sake!

I wasn't holding a grudge.  I was so stunned by the verbiage (and shocked by
the events, and busy trying to find and keep up with friends, family,
colleagues, and others) that I declined to react to it right away.  But the
rhetorical flow uncorked by that remark has continued to this point, when
it's obvious that I just couldn't stay out of it any longer.

> I'm not the pervert who linked "karmic" and "debt" together. Actually, I
stole it from Gary Zukav. I think they go together well. And I stand behind
my statement.  Sorry if you find it insensitive, but I believe America does
have a karmic debt to pay. All of us do--as nations and as individuals and
beings of the Earth and Universe.

Thanks for the apology.  I do find it insensitive.  Take the biggest crime
that has hit you closest to your home--oh, just imagine a single rape--and
ask yourself how the "karmic debt" comment would go over.

I tend to dislike this kind of "karmic debt" thinking applied to these
events--especially in a non-fiction context.  It is too often misused to
"explain" away terrible events--not just the multiple hijackings and attacks
of 9/11, but many other massacres, injustices, and disasters throughout
history.

> Perhaps I can explain.  I believe every little choice we make inevitably
matters--from the small daily choices like whether or not we smile at
passer-bys on the street, or speak our minds here on P-List; to how or if we
vote and where we spend our money and whether we recycle instead of trash;
to the grander choices like engaging in war or supporting Middle-eastern
governments and freedom fighters.  No we don't usually see the effects, not
right away anyway--we don't see the passerby's return smile leap from face
to face as he makes his way uptown to work; we don't always see the
delighted or angry or bored reactions of our P-List readers; our votes don't
always win elections, and our dollar power often takes years to accrue; the
Earth won't be polluted overnight, nor will the angry and downtrodden rise
up tomorrow--but it all has an effect somewhere down the line Whether it be
a big or small effect, or a positive or negative effect, everything HAS an
effect.  It can't NOT have an effect.  (Isn't there some existentialist who
talks about this?)

Well, your comments certainly have had an effect on me, mildly negative on
the great scale of things.  But I sure wouldn't wish you to experience
karmic payback as a result.

> So here I am today ranting and raving about how bad the war stinks.  Do I
think it's gonna help?  Not really.  Not right away.  And probably not in my
lifetime.  But what's my alternative?  Play along with you all and throw in
my weight with something that causes misery for others down the line?

What do you mean by this?  Who is "you all"?  And what do you mean by "throw
in my weight...."?

> As for fueling battles here on the P-List with my offensive and obnoxious
behavior, well, not everybody sees it that way.

Well, I haven't seen a lot of concord being produced by the rhetoric offered
by a number of the self-described "pacifists" on this mailing list.   I find
much of it extremely upsetting and contrary to what I perceive as a
fundamental goal of pacifism--that is, finding ways to heighten concord, not
antagonisms.  In fact, no other mailing list on which I participate has had
so many people calling themselves pacifists--and no other mailing list on
which I participate has responded to 9/11 and the intervention in
Afghanistan with so much personal vitriol.  That's a disappointment,
considering the good intentions of so many participants.  But I guess that,
for now at least, I'd be better off lowering my expectations for this group,
accepting the accept the likelihood (based on past history) that a minority
of subscribers will continue exercise their freedom to bombard the silent or
near-silent majority with personal attacks, inflammatory insinuations, and
virtual tons of mediocre articles from easily linked sources, rarely
recognizing constructive criticisms when they're offered.

d.