Fw: One last attempt?

[The Great Quail]

Doug,

>You don't consider calling me anti-American to be insulting?

Are you denying that several of your forwards have taken 
anti-American stances? Which is what I said. I did not call you 
anti-American, though I rarely hear you offer even a peep of any 
neutral, let alone pro-, American ideas. Personally, I don't care if 
you are anti- or pro- or neutral- American or whatever. I am not into 
labelling people like that; it's subjective, divisive, misused, and 
flattens complexity.However, various statements may be labelled as 
such; and if there is an abundance of such statements, it partially 
sets the tone of the discourse.

>Many veterans have gone on to become outspoken opponents of war,
>and critics of US foreign policy -- out of their love of this country.
>Calling critics of the war anti-American is precisely what the "love it or
>leave it" crowd did back in the '60s.

I am sorry for you losses. I know it is difficult -- not from 
personal experience, but father lost friends as well. And believe me, 
you will find no greater advocate of free speech than myself. 
Protesting American policy is part of what makes this country what it 
is. However, the point is, this is not Vietnam, and I was protesting 
your deliberate misunderstanding of my statements. Nor do I agree 
that you can conflate a current pro-Military stance with "love it or 
leave it" sentiment, which is what you were suggesting in your 
original post. All your statements above are well and good, but none 
of them really address your tactics of deliberate distortion.

>It's hell, isn't it.  I do sympathize.

Thank you. That's the nicest thing you've said to me.

>when they had us shooting at
>human silhouette targets on which the drill sergeants had painted faces
>with Asian features, slanted eyes.  "Kill that fucking gook!" they'd scream
>in our ears as we fired our rounds.  It was almost as sick as the boot camp
>stuff in Heavy Metal Jacket,

I have heard similar things from my Dad and his friends. It sounds 
terrible; I can't imagine that level of mental abuse and blatant 
shock-programming.

And I mean this, seriously -- thanks for that personal and painful 
story. It helps me understand more of the emotional distress you 
occasionally evince in your arguments. I wish the world was 
different, and no one had to go through such things. And, like 
Barbara, I hope that we are getting better.

>I read that to mean, in this instant, in this
>madness of rockets falling and people suffering and dying, the present is
>all-consuming, no past and no future, only the destruction and chaos of
>this moment, the existential reality of  life in total war.

Actually, I agree with you, that's how I interpret the sentence as 
well. Though jbor made some interesting points that I am still 
thinking over.

>I don't
>pretend to have the final answer, and I respect anybody who struggles
>authentically and in good conscience, prior to taking action with regard to
>supporting war or serving in war, but I do sincerely believe that promoting
>alternatives to violence is a good thing.  I sincerely believe it is right
>to question authority, to criticize our leaders if they are taking us down
>the wrong path, to do what I can do to try to change course.

Doug, what can I say? It seems almost churlish to comment that I wish 
you could be like this in all your posts, but that's the truth. I 
appreciate you honesty and directness, and I apologize for calling 
you a "fucked-up old man." That was out of line, and I'm sorry.

>There has yet to be any serious debate at the
>national level about alternative ways to deal with the September 11
>attacks.

In that, I agree with you. But I ascribe more weight to a lack of 
good alternatives that you do.

>And, the closer you look at what's actually happening, the more it
>looks like the kind of situation Pynchon comes back to again and again in
>his work:  people hypnotized by leaders who themselves are under the
>influence of the companies that make profits from the war, and by the
>culture they have helped to create, go along with a war they never really
>had a chance to discuss or debate, convinced that in so doing they will
>help make the world safe for democracy

I see your point, but as I have argued before, I do not agree with 
it, because I think it is too one-dimensional.

>>>  I have a thing for nuclear reactors. (It's the blue glow.)
>
>Tell Homer Simpson I said hello.

Heh heh -- Long live Sector 7-G! When I took classes at Three Mile 
Island, one of the Control Room Operators had a picture of Homer 
taped above a console -- supposedly it greatly upset his superior, 
who believed the Simpsons "gave American the wrong impression of 
nuclear power."

--Blinky, the Three-Beaked Quail
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Great Quail, Keeper of the Libyrinth:
http://www.TheModernWord.com

"All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each
event -- in the living act, the undoubted deed -- there, some unknown
but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from
behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask!
How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall?"
      --Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"