VLVL 4: War, politics and love

Otto ottosell at yahoo.de
Sat Aug 30 09:07:43 CDT 2003


----- Original Message -----
From: "jbor" <jbor at bigpond.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: VLVL 4: War, politics and love


> >> Then he wouldn't be labelled a "bush vet". And the name change and
covering
> of their tracks wouldn't
> >> have occurred "since the war" but "since he went AWOL".
>
> on 30/8/03 12:04 AM, Otto wrote:
>
> > I don't see the logic in this. If he went AWOL he has a damn good reason
not
> > to tell this to anybody.
>
> It's got nothing to do with logic. It's the way it's written in the text.
If
> he was a draft dodger or a deserter then he wouldn't be described as a
"bush
> vet", he'd be described as a draft dodger or deserter. The text tells us
he
> was a "bush vet", that he and "Moonpie" changed their names and actively
> "erased" their "trail" over the years since the war", and that he first
> appeared on the scene in Vineland on the night of Zoyd's divorce, which
> times it somewhere around January '73, which is when the US troops came
home
> from Vietnam.
>
> >> Arguments about the Vietnam War aside (and I probably agree with most
of
> >> what you say on the subject above), I'm interested in what's going on
in
> >> Pynchon's text. I think you can read this detail about RC and Moonpie
as a
> >> sellout in one of two ways. Either RC sold out on the '60s by going to
> > fight
> >> in Vietnam and not becoming a conscientious objector like many of the
> >> anti-War counter-culture boys did,
> >
> > Only if he had went to Nam deliberately, or, which is more likely, he'd
been
> > sent there without thinking too much in advance, then saw what was
really
> > going on (contrary to the lies spread by the media) and began making up
his
> > mind.
>
> Possible I guess, though there's nothing in the text to substantiate it.
> What I'm interested in is analysing the details which *are* presented in
the
> text. For some reason he has changed his name and worked to erase his
trail
> after returning from the war. That's what we're given. No going AWOL, no
> being tricked into signing up, no change of heart.
>

And no shame. The text doesn't say anything about shame.

> >> or he sells out on the rest of the troops
> >> he fought beside by returning and changing his name and trying
> >> to hide the fact that he *was* a soldier in Vietnam.
> >
> > That's no sell-out but a personal decision not to kill innocent Asian
> > villagers anymore, stop being part of a genocide I would accept as very
> > honorable.
>
> No, you've misunderstood me. He has returned with the troops he fought
> beside but actively dissociated himself from them, tried to pretend he
never
> fought in Vietnam, that he was never a soldier like they were.
>

That's speculation from your side. The text doesn't say that he pretended
that he hasn't been there.

> >> The point remains that RC and
> >> Moonpie *have* changed their names and "erased" their "trail" since the
> > war.
> >> One way or another they are trying to cover up their identities, their
> > past;
> >> they are ashamed of what RC had been. It's the way Pynchon depicts
their
> >> consciousness of having sold out -- either way -- which is interesting
in
> > a
> >> thematic sense.
> >>
> > I still don't see the reason for shame in this.
>
> I think that one of the themes of this novel (and it ties back to the "we
> are They" theme of _GR_) is showing the level of complicity which ordinary
> people have in perpetuating corrupt power systems and inhuman situations,
> how by looking out only for themselves they sell out on others in the
> community or society, and the way that those in positions of authority
will
> manipulate this innate selfishness or instinct for self-preservation. It
> seems to me that "RC and Moonpie", like Van Meter, Frenesi, Zoyd and many
> other of the characters, provide us with yet another example of this.
>
> > Zoyd's "jobs" are part of the old network that still works in 1984. The
> > warning he receives from Blood is a friendly gesture.
>
> Sure, but Blood is yet another example of a sell-out, as Terrance has
> already alluded to:
>
>     Zoyd knew that long ago in Saigon, Blood had more than once heard
>     this warning from elements of the Vietcong in whose interest it
>     was to keep him alive and in business. (45.4)
>
> This tells us that during the Vietnam War Blood was working for the
> Vietcong, the enemy. His Vietcong connections had warned him when to stay
> away from "the base", because they were going to launch a guerilla
assault.
> The American soldiers there would be killed as they slept. And it tells us
> that "*Zoyd knew*" this about Blood.
>

Right, but that isn't necessarily more immoral then what the soldiers did
given the history of the Vietnam war. "The Enemy" is a people of peasants
fighting the biggest military machinery of the world. According to your line
of argument every American soldier fighting in Vietnam sold out his humanity
by killing women and children, dropping napalm, spreading agent orange.

> Van Meter doesn't tell Zoyd it's not Hector but Brock who's out to get him
> (41-2), but Blood certainly makes it clear that it isn't Hector (45.1-4).
> And Zoyd calls Doc Deeply again (49.30-32) *after* he knows for sure that
> Hector isn't the one who's staking out his house.
>
> > Zoyd's call to Doc Deeply is pure self-defense.
>
> Sure it is. He wants Hector out of the way. Hector's been following him
> around (with a business deal, info about Frenesi, and to warn him about
what
> Brock's up to), and Zoyd wants Deeply to lock him up in a cell. Real nice.
>

Right, but not in a prison cell next to a murderer; as Doc Deeply says they
cannot keep Hector for long.

> The reason Zoyd feels "like shit" (45.13) is because he knows that it's
> *not* Hector who's out to get him.

I disagree, he's defending himself against a narc. He's afraid (with good
reasons) of Brock Vond.

> But he still snitches on Hector.
>
> best

Again with good reasons, after being followed by Hector for fifteen years
who now launches an attack on Prairie. I wouldn't call this snitching,
additionally Doc Deeply doesn't pay anything.

Otto




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