VLVL 4: War, politics and love

[jbor]

on 31/8/03 12:07 AM, Otto wrote:

>> What I'm interested in is analysing the details which *are* presented in
> the
>> text. For some reason he has changed his name and worked to erase his
> trail
>> after returning from the war. That's what we're given. No going AWOL, no
>> being tricked into signing up, no change of heart.
>> 
> 
> And no shame. The text doesn't say anything about shame.

No, only that "RC" and "Moonpie" had changed their names and "erased" their
"trail" since he returned from combat duty in the Vietnam War. I don't think
they did this just for fun.

>> No, you've misunderstood me. He has returned with the troops he fought
>> beside but actively dissociated himself from them, tried to pretend he
> never
>> fought in Vietnam, that he was never a soldier like they were.
>> 
> That's speculation from your side. The text doesn't say that he pretended
> that he hasn't been there.

I was correcting your misinterpretation of what I wrote. It was one of two
alternative explanations I offered for what is described. The text does
state that their "real names [were] left back along their by now
erased-enough trail since the war" (35.25). I think it's reasonable to
assume that they *chose* to change their names, and the second part of the
clause implies (to me, anyway) active agency: that they had erased "*their*"
trail, i.e. deliberately. You tried to dismiss this as illogical. It isn't.

>> Sure, but Blood is yet another example of a sell-out, as Terrance has
>> already alluded to:
>> 
>> Zoyd knew that long ago in Saigon, Blood had more than once heard
>> this warning from elements of the Vietcong in whose interest it
>> was to keep him alive and in business. (45.4)
>> 
>> This tells us that during the Vietnam War Blood was working for the
>> Vietcong, the enemy. His Vietcong connections had warned him when to stay
>> away from "the base", because they were going to launch a guerilla
> assault.
>> The American soldiers there would be killed as they slept. And it tells us
>> that "*Zoyd knew*" this about Blood.
>> 
> Right, but that isn't necessarily more immoral then what the soldiers did
> given the history of the Vietnam war.

I didn't say it was, and it's not an issue the text takes up (but I strongly
disagree with you). I noted it as another example of snitching on your
mates. And I think the most likely possibility is that it was in the
"interest" of the Vietcong to tell Blood when they were going to attack "the
base" and so ensure Blood's safety because he was feeding them information.

> "The Enemy" is a people of peasants
> fighting the biggest military machinery of the world. According to your line
> of argument every American soldier fighting in Vietnam sold out his humanity
> by killing women and children, dropping napalm, spreading agent orange.

That's not my line of argument at all, thanks. You seem to have a fairly
lop-sided understanding of the Vietnam War. Communist guerrillas (i.e. the
Vietcong), backed by Ho Chi Minh's North Vietnamese government, had been
murdering innocent South Vietnamese people since 1960, and innocent South
Vietnamese people continued being murdered into the late '70s and '80s. It
was an actual war between North Vietnam and South Vietnam, which were
sovereign states until 1975, when the North Vietnamese army finally ousted
the South Vietnamese government.

Mobilisation of US troops occurred after LBJ's Tonkin Gulf Resolution in
1964. Like the recent invasion of Iraq, the justification for deploying
American military forces was based on wrong information. And, as it seems
might be happening in Iraq now, the American military intervention actually
did more harm than good to the people they were supposedly trying to assist.

>> Sure it is. He wants Hector out of the way. Hector's been following him
>> around (with a business deal, info about Frenesi, and to warn him about
> what
>> Brock's up to), and Zoyd wants Deeply to lock him up in a cell. Real nice.
>> 
> Right, but not in a prison cell next to a murderer; as Doc Deeply says they
> cannot keep Hector for long.

Zoyd doesn't know that, of course. He wants Deeply to lock Hector up. Zoyd
doesn't find out it's "minimum-security", and that Hector will be locked
away for perhaps less than a week only, until Deeply arrives with his goons
to take Hector away (52.27-29). Where in the text does it say or imply
anything about Zoyd being put in a prison cell next to a murderer?

>> The reason Zoyd feels "like shit" (45.13) is because he knows that it's
>> *not* Hector who's out to get him.
> 
> I disagree, he's defending himself against a narc. He's afraid (with good
> reasons) of Brock Vond.

Brock Vond isn't a narc. He's from the "Justice Department" and has
"military backup" (50.24-25). Hector tells Zoyd that it's Brock who's
staking out his place. And Blood and Vato had already told Zoyd that it
isn't Hector he needs to worry about.

You argued that Zoyd snitches on Hector in self-defence. My point was that
he had already found out from Blood and Vato that it *isn't* Hector who is
staking out his house (45.1-12), but that he had rung Deeply again to snitch
on Hector *after* he knows this (49.27-32). It appears, however, that Baba
Havabananda had already phoned Deeply to come get Hector as well (52.23-26).

>> But he still snitches on Hector.
>> 
> Again with good reasons, after being followed by Hector for fifteen years
> who now launches an attack on Prairie.

Zoyd is concerned about protecting Prairie, sure, but Hector doesn't
"attack" her. The situation is far more complex than you allow.

> I wouldn't call this snitching,
> additionally Doc Deeply doesn't pay anything.

He rings Deeply to tell him where Hector is so that Deeply will lock Hector
up in a cell. I'd call that snitching.

best