Iraq

[vze422fs at verizon.net]

on 2/9/03 4:35 AM, Terrance at lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> vze422fs at verizon.net wrote:
>> 
>> on 2/8/03 7:29 PM, Terrance at lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "calbert at hslboxmaster.com" wrote:
>>>> "You can't take
>>>> the energy out. You can't take the terrorists out."
>>>> 
>>>> Here again we must distinguish between the UN and US. I don't see the UN
>>>> having any axe at all in the "energy" debate, at least with respect to
>>>> Iraq.
>>> 
>>> I say the oil is a bigger ax for the UN than the USA. The USA wants
>>> Saddam out.
>>> Most of the rest of the UN could care less about Saddam and his weapons,
>>> but they care about the oil. The USA doesn't care about the oil.
>> 
>> The USA has vast oil reserves. They are strategically important. You can
>> power a hybrid Corolla on hydrogen, but not an F-16. It's cheaper in the
>> long run to buy, or take, oil from assholes in the ME than to deplete our
>> own reserves. If we run low, we HAVE to go to them. That is not an
>> acceptable situation. The USA does care about oil. Look at our P and VP.
> 
> 
> What does the US want? More oil from Iraq or less? Higher prices? Higher
> production? What? Explain this to me. I can't follow the reasoning.
> Everyone knows that Iraq is 98% dependent on its oil for foreign
> exchange. That's a given. You can't take oil out of the equation.
> Everyone knows that the US needs oil to run its huge economy. But
> everything the US has done thus far, including backing Iraq in the
> Iran-Iraq war, leading a coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, leading
> the UN on the sanctions  and inspections, has been been
> counterproductive (assuming as you do that the US has an interest in
> Iraq's oil). In fact, it has cost the USA huge. When the US kicked Iraq
> out of Kuwait the Japanese paid for half of the cost of the war effort.
> Why? Because the US needs Iraq's oil? Explain this to me. Why is Germany
> (despite its public peace mongering) bending over backward to support
> the US in the current crisis? Why are the French holding back and
> playing there ace in the hole (the Veto powers)? Why are the  Russians
> willing to let the US do the dirty work again as long as it can recover
> some of its huge losses on investments in Iraq? Isn't it a fact that the
> US doesn't have any real interest in Iraq's oil. Isn't it a fact that
> the UN has an interest in Iraq's oil and not the US? Yes,  it is. Look
> at the president and the vice president? No, you look at them. I'll look
> a the facts. The US will buy oil if Iraq can produce it and sell it at
> the world market price. The US will buy oil from anyone that can do
> this. Other nations are in a very different situation. Some have no oil
> of their own (i.e., Japan, Germany). Some have huge investments in Iraq
> (Russia, France). Some have so called ethnic ties (Turkey, Iran). Some
> have borders with Iraq, and so on. The US has other interests. No, the
> USA is not all that interested in saving the Marsh Arabs or the Kurds.
> But it is interested in getting rid of Saddam. Why? Because the US is
> interested in power, in maintaining its hegemony (and yes, the the USA
> is hegemonic and not a Nation in decline) in the world and growing the
> global economy to get richer. Oil hasn't been important to getting rich
> in the global economy since W.W.II. Look at Japan and Germany. Neither
> has any oil and both have gotten quite rich without it.

I agree in general with most of what you say here. My point was actually
much smaller. The US war machine, which protects Japan and Germany as well,
runs on oil. So for the immediate future we will have an interest in foreign
oil. Obviously, there are many other factors, you have outlined them well.
Still, oil cannot be taken out of the equation.

Japanese manufacturing also is petrochemical dependent.

I may come off as a knee-jerk pacifist, and to an extent that is true, but
believe it or not I like the idea of a strong US military. I sleep better at
night because of it. That military power should be used for defense.