NP Willing Executioners?

[Paul Mackin]

On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:55 PM, Bekah wrote:

> I'm not Otto but I read that book and didn't think much of it.  
> First,  his sources included his own thesis.
>
> But more than sources,  he extrapolated some pretty shaky  
> generalizations from what he found.   I think he discovered that  
> the SS and Nazi police were from every sector of society and that  
> it therefore followed that all Germans knew and basically supported  
> what was going on.
>
> Well,  I have some right-wing nuts of the Christian variety in my  
> family and I'm here to tell you that doesn't represent the 70% of  
> us who are Democrat and proud.  Families just don't necessarily  
> agree down the line as Goldhagen seemed to assume.
>
> Another book that does essentially the same thing  is  "The End of  
> Faith"  by Sam Harris.   He lauds  Goldhagen's book,  condemns all  
> Muslims for the beliefs of the few,  and says essentially that   
> *ALL* Christians believe that the Eucharist is  literally drinking  
> the blood of Jesus and eating his body.  - Sam Harris says it even  
> more crudely.    What he is doing is saying that the moderates, by  
> tolerating these beliefs, are a part of the results.  If you  
> tolerate Muslims or Christians (to a somewhat lesser extent)  at  
> all,  you're not only tolerating,  you're a part of,  the terrorism.
>
> I loathe both books.
>
> Bekah
>
>
As I recall the American reviewers of the book found it very wanting  
for the types of things Bekah mentions.

Will try to look up some of these reviews.



>
> At 8:16 AM +1000 9/22/05, jbor at bigpond.com wrote:
>
>> Otto, would you care to explain what you believe Goldhagen's  
>> argument to be, or what you think the wrong conclusion is?
>>
>> As I understand it, Goldhagen's thesis is that "ordinary" Germans  
>> supported, and in many instances were active and willing  
>> accomplices in, the persecution and murder of Jews in Nazi Germany.
>>
>> best
>>
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:18:14 +0200
>>> From: Otto <ottosell@[omitted]>
>>> To: pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>> Subject: Re: NP Willing Executioners?
>>>
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Note that it's not been Goldhagen's original argument. It's just the
>>> wrong conclusion some people drew out of it.
>>>
>>> jbor@[omitted] wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  The argument below, logically extended, would likewise condemn all
>>>>  Americans for the atrocities committed (against Native  
>>>> Americans and
>>>>  African Americans; in South-East Asia, Iraq, wherever else) by  
>>>> their
>>>>  elected American Reichs. Wouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>>  Not agreeing with the argument, just questioning the logic.
>>>>
>>>>  best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  From: "Joel Katz" <mittelwerk@[omitted]>
>>>>>  To: pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>>>>  Subject: Re: exhumed book from nazi slut
>>>>>  Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:24:19 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  [...] the goldhagen book of a few years back ('hitler's willing
>>>>>  executioners'), as well as common sense, paints a picture of  
>>>>> general
>>>>>  acquiescence and limited participation among the teutonic  
>>>>> populace.
>>>>>  also
>>>>>  check out klaus thewelheit's two volume 'male fantasies,' on the
>>>>>  widespread
>>>>>  pop-cultural support for murderous anti-semitism and  
>>>>> slavophobia.  so,
>>>>>  exceptionalist anecdotes aside, when we speak of nazis of that  
>>>>> time we
>>>>>  should indeed speak of germans as a whole.  and reserve our  
>>>>> pity for
>>>>>  those
>>>>>  who deserve it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  [...]
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >Joel Katz wrote:
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >>http://www.villagevoice.com/books/0533,tuhusdubr,66877,10.html
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >>as ben hecht said:  they should have walled in the whole  
>>>>> country
>>>>>  and let
>>>>>  >>them feed on themselves.
>>>>>  >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>