Christian ideas refracted thru AtD: 1) Forgiveness (spoilers galore)

Sun Dec 24 10:53:31 CST 2006

Here, here....Christianity shouldn't automatically be handed the monopoly on
these items.  And with that...feliz navidad to all....and to all a good
night.

On 12/23/06, kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Forgiveness, vengefulness, kindness, charity, jealousy, etc. are human
> emotions.  They may be described in the Bible, but that doesn't give
> christianity dibs on them.  The cross became a symbol of christianity
> because Christ (along with lots of others, unsung) was nailed to
> one.  Why?  Because a cross is humanoid in shape.  Easier to nail someone to
> than, say, a crescent.  Now any time someone stretches their arms out to
> their sides to bring some cool air to their armpits, they become a "christ
> figure."  I understand that a lot of writers and film directors deliberately
> evoke these emotions and images for their christian symbolism.  But that
> doesn't mean that's what Pynchon is driving at.  Sometimes revenge is a cry
> for justice -- human justice.  I think the issue of whether Webb is a good
> guy or a bad guy for dynamiting enemy targets IS a central issue in
> ATD.  But that doesn't make it a battle between the Testaments.  Finding
> easy christian symbolism in Pynchon's works red!
> uces rather than enhances the meaning.
>
> Laura
>
>
>
>
> >From: bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>
> >
> >Oh I loved it,  Mike.  It's a keeper for me - even if I may not go
> >along with ascribing "forgiveness" (or the futility of revenge?)
> >solely to a "Christian"  use,  I certainly appreciate the thematic
> >ideas.
> >
> >Bekah
> >
> >At 10:08 AM +0000 12/23/06, mikebailey at speakeasy.net wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Central Christian virtue: forgiveness
> >>
> >>AtD contains an extended meditation on revenge.  As the guy said in
> >>Fight Club, "How's that working for you?"
> >>It's not just a patriarchal phallologocentric thing: Mayva's into it
> too.
> >>
> >>For Webb, it messes up his family life (he even mentions that
> >>post-mortem, channeled through Reef.)  Also, he never has time to
> >>think.
> >>This means he doesn't have time to develop his utopian ideas, but
> >>instead develops destructive talents more in keeping with the
> >>capitalism he's fighting -- and maybe has never figured out that his
> >>violent actions provoke and are used to excuse the escalations of
> >>the capitalists.  He's shocked when he learns that they use his
> >>chosen weapon.
> >>
> >>As for the rest of the family it seems to me they are given time to
> >>think things over, and prosper to the extent that they give up on
> >>revenge.
> >>
> >>"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord" and for once, I
> >>find this Old Testament precept complements nicely the New Testament
> >>commandment to forgive.  It will be taken care of (as also per
> >>Jesse's Emerson quote in Vineland) -- meanwhile, if we can interact
> >>kindly we may even make of our enemy a friend and find a way for
> >>them to clear their karma, which in turn may help us to avoid our
> >>own bad karma...contrast that with creating more bad karma by
> >>insisting on revenge -- Jesus was a genius!
> >>
> >>Lake's sexual connection to Deuce sidesteps the issue of
> >>forgiveness, though her actions walk pretty far along the path of
> >>forgiveness.  In the end his own actions (refracted as they may be
> >>from the mysterious crime Lew Basnight committed way back in
> >>Chicago?) lead to his downfall.
> >>
> >>Frank doesn't derive any particular satisfaction from killing Sloat,
> >>or for that matter from blowing up the train.  When he breaks with
> >>the revolutionists, it only means "a few more beans for somebody
> >>else" -- the flat affect emanating from that interpretation
> >>indicates he's moved on, that continuing these hostilities just
> >>doesn't make emotional sense to him.
> >>
> >>Reef's notion of revenge is too diffuse, and defused by his own
> >>proficiency in sex, gambling and style, to become a way of life.
> >>That he should end up with Yashmeen is in a way a travesty - her
> >>mathematical talent passed over -- and in some pseudo-psychological
> >>way I'm tempted to see the Goettingen scenes as a way for Pynchon to
> >>glance down the road of math that he didn't take.  I wouldn't think
> >>he'd have a lot of regrets, as what he turned his hand to has
> >>thriven mightily.  But I'd have liked to see Kit & Yashmeen hook
> >>up...(my own jealousy of Reef, who is cooler and gets more action
> >>than I, comes into play here)  However, some semblance of stability
> >>and gaining of emotional depth for Reef, and the (for me anyway)
> >>very affecting triangle with Cyprian does compensate.
> >>
> >>Poor Cyprian internalizes forgiveness -- turning the other (butt)
> >>cheek, enjoying the pain, sexualizing the humiliation, all that
> >>stuff.  I'm not really into that, but I'm close enough to being into
> >>it that I really enjoyed the description.  That is, I've tasted
> >>enough abuse in my life that I've wondered whether I do have a taste
> >>for it, for it to happen to me so much - though by most standards
> >>I've had it pretty easy...but anyway...
> >>
> >>Kit - I haven't begun to assimilate what all happens to him at the
> >>end.  However, Foley Walker's eventual disposal of Scarsdale Vibe is
> >>another instantiation of the principle that victims needn't
> >>retaliate.  And moreover, Kit's math genius dwindles after his final
> >>interview with Vibe.  I see that as, he can't get beyond the tainted
> >>nature of the arrangement, and since he's preoccupied with that he
> >>doesn't have time to think.  Also I think that in Vibe's office, he
> >>thinks he's totally concealing his resolution to get even, but I got
> >>the distinct feeling that he wasn't...I wonder if anything in the
> >>text supports that...
> >>
> >>  Mayva's desire for revenge really comes from loyalty to Webb.  But
> >>in her own right, she's been a Bible-thumper all along (like DL's
> >>mom in Vineland) and makes her own accommodation with the
> >>bourgeoisie.  I suspect but have no textual evidence that the ice
> >>cream parlor might have been a victim of her occasionally NOT
> >>swallowing retorts and eating crow...but it may have been that a
> >>maid gig just is less wearisome than owning a small business.  She
> >>knows her desire for revenge is a sin, but she doesn't turn from
> >>what she considers to be the source of forgiveness...
> >>
> >>Foley Walker and Scarsdale Vibe: wow!  There's your Iceland Spar
> >>effect...   Vibe reflects the intransigence of the Rockefellers --
> >>those bastids actually ruined or co-opted the mine owners who had
> >>settled with the union, and brought the militant arm of the
> >>government in on something that should have been settled in
> >>courtrooms and meetings.  (so in a way Webb's implacable hatred
> >>reflects Vibe's implacable bastardly greed)
> >>
> >>But Foley Walker's assuming Vibe's identity -- and really it is he
> >>who does practice Christian outreach, since the scholarship for Kit
> >>and the prescient stock tips are his ideas, which stem from voices
> >>he hears rather than logical analysis -- being as one might say a
> >>forgiving victim, since he bore for Vibe numerous pains and cared
> >>for him, a friend closer than a brother.  Forgiving 70 times 7.  And
> >>perhaps Walker is like the imaginary dude in Fight
> >>Club...hmmmm......but in any case, he saves Frank from blood-guilt,
> >>and (perhaps) assumes the rest of Vibe's identity...
> >>
> >>Is how it lines up for me...
> >
>
>
>
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