Christian ideas refracted thru AtD: 1) Forgiveness (spoilers galore)

[Martin Jordan]

ok, then lets "reduce" pynchon further on:

Love your enemies! is a central religious postulate.

Thats what Lake does and there she goes:
..becoming  a "Lake of compassion"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasarovar

merry Christmas :-))
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Christian ideas refracted thru AtD: 1) Forgiveness (spoilers 
galore)


> Forgiveness, vengefulness, kindness, charity, jealousy, etc. are human 
> emotions.  They may be described in the Bible, but that doesn't give 
> christianity dibs on them.  The cross became a symbol of christianity 
> because Christ (along with lots of others, unsung) was nailed to one. 
> Why?  Because a cross is humanoid in shape.  Easier to nail someone to 
> than, say, a crescent.  Now any time someone stretches their arms out to 
> their sides to bring some cool air to their armpits, they become a "christ 
> figure."  I understand that a lot of writers and film directors 
> deliberately evoke these emotions and images for their christian 
> symbolism.  But that doesn't mean that's what Pynchon is driving at. 
> Sometimes revenge is a cry for justice -- human justice.  I think the 
> issue of whether Webb is a good guy or a bad guy for dynamiting enemy 
> targets IS a central issue in ATD.  But that doesn't make it a battle 
> between the Testaments.  Finding easy christian symbolism in Pynchon's 
> works red!
> uces rather than enhances the meaning.
>
> Laura
>
>
>
>
>>From: bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>
>>
>>Oh I loved it,  Mike.  It's a keeper for me - even if I may not go
>>along with ascribing "forgiveness" (or the futility of revenge?)
>>solely to a "Christian"  use,  I certainly appreciate the thematic
>>ideas.
>>
>>Bekah
>>
>>At 10:08 AM +0000 12/23/06, mikebailey at speakeasy.net wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Central Christian virtue: forgiveness
>>>
>>>AtD contains an extended meditation on revenge.  As the guy said in
>>>Fight Club, "How's that working for you?"
>>>It's not just a patriarchal phallologocentric thing: Mayva's into it too.
>>>
>>>For Webb, it messes up his family life (he even mentions that
>>>post-mortem, channeled through Reef.)  Also, he never has time to
>>>think.
>>>This means he doesn't have time to develop his utopian ideas, but
>>>instead develops destructive talents more in keeping with the
>>>capitalism he's fighting -- and maybe has never figured out that his
>>>violent actions provoke and are used to excuse the escalations of
>>>the capitalists.  He's shocked when he learns that they use his
>>>chosen weapon.
>>>
>>>As for the rest of the family it seems to me they are given time to
>>>think things over, and prosper to the extent that they give up on
>>>revenge.
>>>
>>>"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord" and for once, I
>>>find this Old Testament precept complements nicely the New Testament
>>>commandment to forgive.  It will be taken care of (as also per
>>>Jesse's Emerson quote in Vineland) -- meanwhile, if we can interact
>>>kindly we may even make of our enemy a friend and find a way for
>>>them to clear their karma, which in turn may help us to avoid our
>>>own bad karma...contrast that with creating more bad karma by
>>>insisting on revenge -- Jesus was a genius!
>>>
>>>Lake's sexual connection to Deuce sidesteps the issue of
>>>forgiveness, though her actions walk pretty far along the path of
>>>forgiveness.  In the end his own actions (refracted as they may be
>>>from the mysterious crime Lew Basnight committed way back in
>>>Chicago?) lead to his downfall.
>>>
>>>Frank doesn't derive any particular satisfaction from killing Sloat,
>>>or for that matter from blowing up the train.  When he breaks with
>>>the revolutionists, it only means "a few more beans for somebody
>>>else" -- the flat affect emanating from that interpretation
>>>indicates he's moved on, that continuing these hostilities just
>>>doesn't make emotional sense to him.
>>>
>>>Reef's notion of revenge is too diffuse, and defused by his own
>>>proficiency in sex, gambling and style, to become a way of life.
>>>That he should end up with Yashmeen is in a way a travesty - her
>>>mathematical talent passed over -- and in some pseudo-psychological
>>>way I'm tempted to see the Goettingen scenes as a way for Pynchon to
>>>glance down the road of math that he didn't take.  I wouldn't think
>>>he'd have a lot of regrets, as what he turned his hand to has
>>>thriven mightily.  But I'd have liked to see Kit & Yashmeen hook
>>>up...(my own jealousy of Reef, who is cooler and gets more action
>>>than I, comes into play here)  However, some semblance of stability
>>>and gaining of emotional depth for Reef, and the (for me anyway)
>>>very affecting triangle with Cyprian does compensate.
>>>
>>>Poor Cyprian internalizes forgiveness -- turning the other (butt)
>>>cheek, enjoying the pain, sexualizing the humiliation, all that
>>>stuff.  I'm not really into that, but I'm close enough to being into
>>>it that I really enjoyed the description.  That is, I've tasted
>>>enough abuse in my life that I've wondered whether I do have a taste
>>>for it, for it to happen to me so much - though by most standards
>>>I've had it pretty easy...but anyway...
>>>
>>>Kit - I haven't begun to assimilate what all happens to him at the
>>>end.  However, Foley Walker's eventual disposal of Scarsdale Vibe is
>>>another instantiation of the principle that victims needn't
>>>retaliate.  And moreover, Kit's math genius dwindles after his final
>>>interview with Vibe.  I see that as, he can't get beyond the tainted
>>>nature of the arrangement, and since he's preoccupied with that he
>>>doesn't have time to think.  Also I think that in Vibe's office, he
>>>thinks he's totally concealing his resolution to get even, but I got
>>>the distinct feeling that he wasn't...I wonder if anything in the
>>>text supports that...
>>>
>>>  Mayva's desire for revenge really comes from loyalty to Webb.  But
>>>in her own right, she's been a Bible-thumper all along (like DL's
>>>mom in Vineland) and makes her own accommodation with the
>>>bourgeoisie.  I suspect but have no textual evidence that the ice
>>>cream parlor might have been a victim of her occasionally NOT
>>>swallowing retorts and eating crow...but it may have been that a
>>>maid gig just is less wearisome than owning a small business.  She
>>>knows her desire for revenge is a sin, but she doesn't turn from
>>>what she considers to be the source of forgiveness...
>>>
>>>Foley Walker and Scarsdale Vibe: wow!  There's your Iceland Spar
>>>effect...   Vibe reflects the intransigence of the Rockefellers -- 
>>>those bastids actually ruined or co-opted the mine owners who had
>>>settled with the union, and brought the militant arm of the
>>>government in on something that should have been settled in
>>>courtrooms and meetings.  (so in a way Webb's implacable hatred
>>>reflects Vibe's implacable bastardly greed)
>>>
>>>But Foley Walker's assuming Vibe's identity -- and really it is he
>>>who does practice Christian outreach, since the scholarship for Kit
>>>and the prescient stock tips are his ideas, which stem from voices
>>>he hears rather than logical analysis -- being as one might say a
>>>forgiving victim, since he bore for Vibe numerous pains and cared
>>>for him, a friend closer than a brother.  Forgiving 70 times 7.  And
>>>perhaps Walker is like the imaginary dude in Fight
>>>Club...hmmmm......but in any case, he saves Frank from blood-guilt,
>>>and (perhaps) assumes the rest of Vibe's identity...
>>>
>>>Is how it lines up for me...
>>
>
>