ATDTDA (2): Second Corinthians 11:19 (32.32)

[Joseph T]

On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Joseph T wrote:

> This is a poignant exchange and one of several instances in ATD  
> where different interpretations of  the scriptures conflict. It is  
> funny when Ray Ipsow( the light itself) displays an equal or  
> superior familiarity with Corinthians that places him rather than  
> S. Vibe in the position of putting up with fools, suddenly Vibe's  
> body guards snap to attention and Vibe himself is not sure if this  
> is an affront to his "faith". It is, and notable that Vibe doesn't  
> get it. Most  "fundamentalist" preachers willfully ignore large  
> parts of the Bible and focus on recirculated Paul, rather than the  
> full rich tradition that informed the sermons of someone like  
> Martin Luther King.
>
>  At this point I  probably fall out along the lines of  a quaker,  
> socialist , visual artist, smart aleck Irishman, but I know the  
> bible. I stopped reading Paul about 15 years ago when I realized  
> the guy was a self aggrandizing bullshitter, whose understanding of  
> the teachings of Jesus was remote at best, and for which he  
> substituted a propositional theology of atonement. But 2  
> Corinthians is the NT book that would fit most easily into Vibe's  
> "philosophy/religion". There are a few  key  emphases : 1)  us  vs.  
> them (the righteous, the reconciled, those who belong to Christ) vs. 
> ( the wicked, the sinful, servant of Belial),  authority (paul is  
> always pumping up his authority but he kind of goes hog wild  
> here) ,  and the comfort of knowing no matter how many sins you  
> commit you will be forgiven and have a home in heaven if you claim  
> Christ's atonement.
>
> When Ipsow suggests that the robber barons might return some of  
> their money to the needy and Vibe says "that's not the way it  
> works", it was a perfect set up for some thought from James book on  
> faith without "works", wars, and the abuse of the poor.
>
> Ipsow's response( ...in these days need arises directly from  
> criminal acts of the rich) can be seen a a direct paraphrase of the  
> book of James:
> Now listen you rich.. you have hoarded wealth in the last days.  
> Look!  the wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your  
> fields cry out against you... you have lived in luxury and fattened  
> yourself in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and killed  
> innocent men ... James 5
>
> Vibe answers with identity politics/religion: " You are a  
> socialist, sir". This is easily derived from the identity based  
> ideas of Paul, and in effect sys I don't have to listen to the  
> truths that I don't like because anyone who criticizes  the  
> injustice of the powerful is a sinner and the servant of the Devil.
>
> Anyone hearing overtones, undertones or just plain fucking tones of  
> contemporary political/religious/social arguments?
>
>
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>
> On Feb 5, 2007, at 8:00 AM, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
>
>> Vibe chuckled soothingly.  "The Professor's afraid you're going to  
>> chase me off with radical talk like that.  But I am not that  
>> sensitive a soul, I am guided, as ever, by Second Corinthians." [...]
>>
>> "Suffering fools is unavoidable," said Ray Ipsow, "but don't ask  
>> me to be 'glad' about it" (p. 32).
>>
>>
>> Second Corinthians is one of the four letters of Paul known as the  
>> Hauptbriefe, which are universally accepted to contain authentic  
>> Pauline correspondence.
>>
>> Werner Georg Kummel would like to view the letter to be a whole  
>> composed by the apostle Paul on one occasion (Introduction to the  
>> New Testament, pp. 287-293).
>>
>> However, there are difficulties that have suggested to several  
>> commentators that 2 Corinthians has been compiled from several  
>> pieces of correspondence. Since the "sorrowful letter" mentioned  
>> in 2:4 does not describe 1 Corinthians, we know that Paul had  
>> written at least three letters to the Corinthians. A quite  
>> reasonable suggestion is that the last four chapters contain the  
>> "sorrowful letter" that is mentioned in 2:4.
>>
>> Other evidence bears out this view. Edgar J. Goodspeed notes a few  
>> considerations that suggest disunity in 2 Corinthians (An  
>> Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 58-59). On the one hand,  
>> "From the beginning through chapter 9 it is pervaded by a sense of  
>> harmony, reconciliation, and comfort." On the other, "With the  
>> beginning of chapter 10 we are once more in the midst of personal  
>> misunderstanding and bitterness, and these continue to dominate  
>> the letter to the end . . . This undeniable incongruity between  
>> the two parts of II Corinthians naturally suggests that we have in  
>> it two letters instead of one - one conciliatory and gratified,  
>> the other injured and incensed. And as the early part of II  
>> Corinthians clearly looks back upon a painful, regretted letter,  
>> the possibility suggests itself that we actually have that letter  
>> in chapters 10-13."
>>
>> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2corinthians.html
>>
>> http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/intro-2cor.html
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians
>>
>>
>>
>> 2nd Corinthians 11:16 - 21:
>>
>> I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a  
>> fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
>>
>> That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were  
>> foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
>>
>> Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
>>
>> For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
>>
>> For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour  
>> you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite  
>> you on the face.
>>
>> I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak.  
>> Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold  
>> also.
>>
>> http://www.kingjamesversionofthebible.com/47-secondcorinthians.html
>
>

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