ATDTDA (2): Second Corinthians 11:19 (32.32)

[Joseph T]

On Feb 5, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Joseph T wrote:

>
> On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Joseph T wrote:
>
>> This is a poignant exchange and one of several instances in ATD  
>> where different interpretations of  the scriptures conflict. It is  
>> funny when Ray Ipsow( the light itself) displays an equal or  
>> superior familiarity with Corinthians that places him rather than  
>> S. Vibe in the position of putting up with fools, suddenly Vibe's  
>> body guards snap to attention and Vibe himself is not sure if this  
>> is an affront to his "faith". It is, and notable that Vibe doesn't  
>> get it. Most  "fundamentalist" preachers willfully ignore large  
>> parts of the Bible and focus on recirculated Paul, rather than the  
>> full rich tradition that informed the sermons of someone like  
>> Martin Luther King.
>>
>>  At this point I  probably fall out along the lines of  a quaker,  
>> socialist , visual artist, smart aleck Irishman, but I know the  
>> bible. I stopped reading Paul about 15 years ago when I realized  
>> the guy was a self aggrandizing bullshitter, whose understanding  
>> of the teachings of Jesus was remote at best, and for which he  
>> substituted a propositional theology of atonement. But 2  
>> Corinthians is the NT book that would fit most easily into Vibe's  
>> "philosophy/religion". There are a few  key  emphases : 1)  us   
>> vs. them (the righteous, the reconciled, those who belong to  
>> Christ) vs.( the wicked, the sinful, servant of Belial),   
>> authority (paul is always pumping up his authority but he kind of  
>> goes hog wild here) ,  and the comfort of knowing no matter how  
>> many sins you commit you will be forgiven and have a home in  
>> heaven if you claim Christ's atonement.
>>
>> When Ipsow suggests that the robber barons might return some of  
>> their money to the needy and Vibe says "that's not the way it  
>> works", it was a perfect set up for some thought from James book  
>> on faith without "works", wars, and the abuse of the poor.
>>
>> Ipsow's response( ...in these days need arises directly from  
>> criminal acts of the rich) can be seen a a direct paraphrase of  
>> the book of James:
>> Now listen you rich.. you have hoarded wealth in the last days.  
>> Look!  the wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your  
>> fields cry out against you... you have lived in luxury and  
>> fattened yourself in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and  
>> killed innocent men ... James 5
>>
>> Vibe answers with identity politics/religion: " You are a  
>> socialist, sir". This is easily derived from the identity based  
>> ideas of Paul, and in effect sys I don't have to listen to the  
>> truths that I don't like because anyone who criticizes  the  
>> injustice of the powerful is a sinner and the servant of the Devil.
>>
>> Anyone hearing overtones, undertones or just plain fucking tones  
>> of contemporary political/religious/social arguments?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2007, at 8:00 AM, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
>>
>>> Vibe chuckled soothingly.  "The Professor's afraid you're going  
>>> to chase me off with radical talk like that.  But I am not that  
>>> sensitive a soul, I am guided, as ever, by Second  
>>> Corinthians." [...]
>>>
>>> "Suffering fools is unavoidable," said Ray Ipsow, "but don't ask  
>>> me to be 'glad' about it" (p. 32).
>>>
>>>
>>> Second Corinthians is one of the four letters of Paul known as  
>>> the Hauptbriefe, which are universally accepted to contain  
>>> authentic Pauline correspondence.
>>>
>>> Werner Georg Kummel would like to view the letter to be a whole  
>>> composed by the apostle Paul on one occasion (Introduction to the  
>>> New Testament, pp. 287-293).
>>>
>>> However, there are difficulties that have suggested to several  
>>> commentators that 2 Corinthians has been compiled from several  
>>> pieces of correspondence. Since the "sorrowful letter" mentioned  
>>> in 2:4 does not describe 1 Corinthians, we know that Paul had  
>>> written at least three letters to the Corinthians. A quite  
>>> reasonable suggestion is that the last four chapters contain the  
>>> "sorrowful letter" that is mentioned in 2:4.
>>>
>>> Other evidence bears out this view. Edgar J. Goodspeed notes a  
>>> few considerations that suggest disunity in 2 Corinthians (An  
>>> Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 58-59). On the one hand,  
>>> "From the beginning through chapter 9 it is pervaded by a sense  
>>> of harmony, reconciliation, and comfort." On the other, "With the  
>>> beginning of chapter 10 we are once more in the midst of personal  
>>> misunderstanding and bitterness, and these continue to dominate  
>>> the letter to the end . . . This undeniable incongruity between  
>>> the two parts of II Corinthians naturally suggests that we have  
>>> in it two letters instead of one - one conciliatory and  
>>> gratified, the other injured and incensed. And as the early part  
>>> of II Corinthians clearly looks back upon a painful, regretted  
>>> letter, the possibility suggests itself that we actually have  
>>> that letter in chapters 10-13."
>>>
>>> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2corinthians.html
>>>
>>> http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/intro-2cor.html
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2nd Corinthians 11:16 - 21:
>>>
>>> I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a  
>>> fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
>>>
>>> That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were  
>>> foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
>>>
>>> Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
>>>
>>> For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
>>>
>>> For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour  
>>> you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite  
>>> you on the face.
>>>
>>> I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak.  
>>> Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold  
>>> also.
>>>
>>> http://www.kingjamesversionofthebible.com/47-secondcorinthians.html
>>
>>
>

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