atdtda: 31 - pg 869-revenge

[Ian Livingston]

I wonder if the question of justice might enter into the notion of revenge
here.  Justice after all is the flag every nation carries into war and the
standard under which the great hatreds rest.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> We see in Vineland that the history of revenge in the Traverse family
> continues (in that they're still lefties pitted against The Establishment).
>  The "not from metal, but from time" quote suggests that time gives revenge
> a greater value.  Or is it just a different value?
>
> Here's another big instance of revenge in TRP:
>
> Roger Mexico's revenge against Them and Jessica's guy (Beaver, is
> it?)comes across as pretty impotent and childish.  He pisses on Their
> conference table then breaks up a dinner party by talking about icky things.
>  Not much of a Counterforce.  These are funny scenes, but they're also sad.
>  They imply there's absolutely nothing effectual we can do to fight the
> Military-Industrial complex.  So maybe TRP admires people who can
> successfully, passionately seek revenge.
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>
> >
> >I think the difference between the revenge of the Webb brothers and
> >the Uskok family is due to a couple of things.   First of course,  as
> >Mark mentioned,  is the history of violence and ages-old animosities
> >in the Balkans.  The Webbs (4 young men) sought revenge for one
> >incident - their father's murder.   The revenge of the Uskok family
> >(many people)  had to do with centuries of built up resentment and
> >grievance for the destruction of their whole culture.   I think that
> >Pynchon was not so much comparing the two families in terms of their
> >rage or vengeance but showing us how long-lasting and pervasive some
> >grievances become.  It's almost as if the Uskok's hang on to their
> >grievances as a part of their culture.
> >
> >p. 874.6-.7    "You have stepped into a long history of blood and
> >penance and the coin of these transactions is struck not from metal,
> >but from Time."
> >
> >Another thing is that on page 874 where the actual death of Theign
> >takes place it's a more torturous experience than is the death of
> >Webb or Vibe.   Difference in cultures maybe?   "Bang-bang,  you're
> >dead,"  versus "Here's an eyeball and there's a knee" (although there
> >was a gun there).
> >
> >The point of comparison may be that the Webb's only have a tiny
> >grievance compared to some world-wide grievances which the West (US)
> >can't even begin to understand.   (I think that's in there somewhere,
> >too.)
> >
> >Bekah
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Apr 26, 2008, at 10:50 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> >> I haven't had the guts or fortitude to tackle Proust, but another p-
> >> list poster (too far in the past for me
> >>  to remember) said that these detailed clothing descriptions were
> >> straight out of Proust.  Not surprising
> >>  that he goes all out in the descriptions before plugging
> >> Remembrance on the next page.
> >>
> >> Something that caught my attention on p. 869:
> >>
> >> The discussion between the Prince and Cyprian about finding someone
> >> to avenge Vlado's death:
> >>
> >> "'I have recently returned,' said Cyprian carefully,'from a place
> >> where it is much more difficult, at least
> >>  for the great Powers, to subvert personal honor.  A place less
> >> developed no doubt than the sophisticated
> >>  cultures of the West, still naive, if not quite innocent.'"
> >>
> >> Cyprian eventually recruits Vlado's cousin, Zlatko.
> >>
> >> Now all of this seems to be kind of a slap in the face to Reef and
> >> Kit.  It could certainly be argued that
> >> they spring from a place "less developed" rather than from the
> >> "sophisticated cultures of the West,"
> >> (a nice play on the meaning of "West").  So why don't they have the
> >> same passion to avenge their father's death.  Although they can't
> >> be bought off (Vibe tries this strategy with Kit), they're easily
> >> diverted.  Not much passion in evidence.   So we get Cyprian-Zlatko-
> >> passion-revenge-less-developed (anarchistic) = good,
> >> and Reef-Kit- no passion-no revenge- less developed (anarchistic) -
> >> seduced by sophisticated culture? also = good.  Why isn't TRP more
> >> pissed off at Reef and Kit's behavior?  Are they meant to be
> >> reflections through
> >> Iceland Spar of the noble passion of Cyprian and Zlatko?
> >>
> >> Laura
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> Sent: Apr 26, 2008 10:12 AM
> >>> To: P-list Liste <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >>> Subject: atdtda: 31 - pg 869
> >>>
> >>> A couple of annotations from page 869
> >>>
> >>> 869.20   salizzada  - a paved street
> >>> http://www.bellereti.com/jzimm/Venice/Calli.html
> >>>
> >>>  Cyprian catches his first look at Reef,   but his eyes are on
> >>> Yashmeen who is all decked out (so to speak) and Pynchon writes
> >>> fashion pieces with such zest,  and perhaps a bit of possible
> >>> symbolic flavor.
> >>>
> >>> Yashmeen's dress is made of
> >>> aubergine  taffeta - a kind of eggplant/plum color on a crisp shiny
> >>> fabric with silver brocade trim
> >>> http://tinyurl.com/3stvsp
> >>> which is styled in a manner similar to:
> >>> http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Silhouettes/
> >>> 1905dressbasqcen1000.jpg
> >>>
> >>> and she has  claret colored (red close to burgundy) capeskin (a light
> >>> flexible leather made from sheepskins with the natural grain
> >>> retained) gloves    and kid leather boots - same color.   Her hat has
> >>> plumes of the same color (claret) and a  brim raked to one side.
> >>> http://tinyurl.com/5rk73z (scroll down)
> >>>
> >>> ***  I don't know about you folks,  but imo,  aubergine (plum) and
> >>> claret (burgundy) clash if the tone - amount of light  -  is not
> >>> perfect - like Austria and Venice.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ccfdesign.com/ASP/WebDesign/Articles/Web-Color-Chart-
> >>> II.asp
> >>> The eggplant in this sample is a bit grey imo,  it should be somewhat
> >>> more purple - like what they call violet there.
> >>>
> >>> Bekah
> >>>
> >
> >homepage.mac.com/bekker2/Menu40.html
> >
>
>
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