AtDTDA: [38] p. 1085 They fly towards grace.

[Mark Kohut]

Not going to argue for or against the bourgeoisie in History.....just trying to understand TRP........notice TRP does speak of the possible whiff of coming goodness.....I read that as TRP saying, maybe, maybe, 
all the scientific/technological "advances" may yet lead to a Good Society..sometime in the future when the kids are living back on Earth...

I want to think P's subtlety is that 1) he elsewhere says a stable family is one of life's Good Things   2) Yet, to raise a family is to, involuntarily perhaps, not be able easily to 'speak truth to power'...to resist The System...to be an effective Counterforce...to, in effect, condone the Military-Industrial Society we are caught in....to be more like Webb (as some p-listers believe) also destroys ....(as Laura first pointed out, I think, Webb's commitment dissolved the bonds of his family, at least....)

Mark

But:
-Michael Bailey writes:

  -The Girls leave the ship AT RIGHT ANGLES----

-but if the Chums are already dealing with all 3 of the commonly-known
dimensions, then the right angle the Chumettes find is the legendary
4th non-space arrow that we've all seen in a 2-d diagram pointing
off in addition to the other 3...

I will say here that you may be overthinking this use......I see "the right angles" the Girls go off on as an allusion to the right angles of the cows going to the slaughterhouse......as Robin wrote, They all are flying into an abattoir.....





--- On Sat, 8/16/08, Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: AtDTDA: [38] p. 1085 They fly towards grace.
> To: "P-list" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Saturday, August 16, 2008, 4:39 PM
> Mark Kohut wrote:
> > Thesis: Yes, the Chums are Us; We are the Chums. Like
> the Stupendica, which was a luxury cruise ship AND a
> destroyer,
> 
> a floor wax AND a dessert topping...
> 
> >I think TRP may be indicting almost ALL of us....—
> bour·geois·ifi·ca·tion 
> >\ˌbu̇(r)zh-ˌwä-zə-fə-ˈkā-shən\
> noun.....the wide (by definition) middle class which gives
> >assent to the military industrial complex.......which is
> so pervasive, we can't see it.....it is all >around
> us,as above, so below, so is invisible as TRP writes twice
> here.
> >
> 
> is the bourgeoisie really so terrible?  in the dialectic of
> History,
> it was the 1st meritocracy not completely dependent on
> violence
> - trade fairs hardening into banking centers, workshops
> evolving into
> master-apprentice situations leading to guilds and seeding
> the notion
> of unionism...
> 
> if recent wars have been primarily a celebration of
> markets,
> could it not be that the commercial system is swallowing
> the
> militaristic-force-based-might-makes-right-divine-right-of-kings
> and peristalsis will transform all this militarism
> ie, once the Bilderbergers have completely bought the
> military-industrial
> complex, it's hard to imagine their beancounters will
> allow its components
> to lower the market value of its holdings by actually
> dropping those bombs...
> 
> or that, once we are all enslaved to the New World Order,
> that its
> beancounters will countenance the loss of productivity
> implied in
> sending working-age healthy dudes and chicks out to commit
> and receive mayhem
> -- sure, some atavistic local satraps might still want to
> indulge their
> blood lust, but it won't look good on their resumes
> 
> 
> >
> >  Sidebar: The great Max Weber, whom we know TRP
> learned from, had more insights and words than just the
> "rationalization of charisma" and the
> singling/narowing of human options in modernity. He wrote
> about the professionalism and efficiency of modern
> institutions......I hardly know his ideas---I know there are
> experts on the p-list---
> 
> 
> if so, I hope they speak up.  The rationalization and
> narrowing certainly do
> seem key to GR and M&D at least.  It'd be a nice
> development if AtD utilized
> more ideas from Weber, wouldn't it, Mark?
> 
> Seems like the professionalism Frank developed in mining
> school and
> his industrial jobs made him a standout among the
> revolutionaries, who were
> mostly wild-eyed impractical chest thumpers (for instance,
> the
> ridiculous plan to steal
> silver on horseback)
> 
> The efficiency of the private eyes, too, contrasted with
> the
> charismatic leadership involved in Webb's brand of
> anarchism - he was
> incited to it and kept at it by Gatlin basically preaching
> at him -
> buttresses this thesis.  Not so much that the private Dicks
> themselves
> are terribly professional, but that their motivations are
> mundane
> and they are not really emotionally vested in their jobs
> the way
> Webb is in dynamiting.
> 
> Again, the peregrinations of Fleetwood represent the
> charismatic
> style of leadership subsumed in a modern efficient
> organization -
> Nansen and Johannsen, and Vormance, expeditions formed
> around
> a doughty adventurer
> but Vormance was paid for by Vibe in pursuit of industrial
> intelligence -
> as opposed to earlier treks underwritten by popular
> subscription.
> 
> So Weber's thoughts, if I understand your precis, do
> light up AtD
> - more lights, please, sir!
> 
> >  The Girls leave the ship AT RIGHT ANGLES----
> 
> but if the Chums are already dealing with all 3 of the
> commonly-known
> dimensions, then the right angle the Chumettes find is the
> legendary
> 4th non-space arrow that we've all seen in a 2-d
> diagram pointing
> off in addition to the other 3...
> 
> >  Or, as used to be said by the Garcons of 1971: if you
> are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
> >
> 
> Timothy Leary told Eldridge Cleaver that people who say
> that are themselves
> part of the problem...Eldridge Cleaver presaged Dick Cheney
> and told Leary
> to fuck himself...
> 
> >  Much less 'optimistic' ending we are arguing,
> than many, most seem to be seeing.
> 
> eenhyeh, what is that St Paul quotation - we are besieged
> but
> not defeated, trampled but not crushed, something like
> that...
> what if the Chums are the 1st derivative of the slope of
> the bell curve
> and represent a distillation of what is lovable --
> they will endure (as Faulkner opined)
> even if their retirement plan is to laugh...