Trieste goes downhill.....

Thu Jan 24 13:50:10 CST 2008

Sorry, a correction.

they considered themselves to be Macedonians and not part of the just-reborn
Bulgarian nation.

2008/1/24, János Székely <miksaapja at gmail.com>:
>
> Mark,
>
> yes, maybe this is the way Pynchon sees it; I just wanted to say that
> Trieste would have remained one of the no-name Adriatic towns if it didn't
> offer itself to the then not-so-powerful Habsburgs in the late 14th century.
> (It was either Venice or the Hungarian Kingdom then, and Trieste chose the
> third option to keep afloat).
>
> The point is that the Military Frontier, having had lost its raison
> d'etre, was non-existent by the time Cyprian arrives on the scene. (Going
> to fix it in the Wiki.) So Pynchon may suggest that the Neo-Uskoks are
> living in some anachronistic millenary dreamworld (note the Gnostic imagery
> in "sparks" and "deliverance to light"). Definitely there were no implications
> for the Macedonian Question. Which seems to be even more complicated than
> today's Balkan conflicts. It appears to be one of those situations in which
> the best solution is to preserve the unjust status quo. Young and dynamic
> Bulgaria wanted national unity with its West Macedonian Slavic brethren, who
> spoke a dialect close to Bulgarian Bulgarian,  but as far as I know, they
> considered themselves to be Macedonians and  part of the just-reborn
> Bulgarian nation. On the other hand, Bulgaria wanted an exit to the Aegean
> Sea in East Macedonia, which was a multiethnic region, with only a small
> Bulgarian minority. Greece also wanted East Macedonia on an ethnic and
> historical basis, while Serbia aspired to West Macedonia. So it looked quite
> reasonable not to change anything, and let the whole region remain with
> Ottoman Turkey (which was the "Sick Man of Europe" anyway).
>
> 2008/1/24, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:Janos,
>
> I think you must be right about Trieste's cosmopolitanism at this point in
> time. I have always heard/read that. When I said that Trieste was "a nodal
> point", I was thinking it was then, as a consequence of its rich past, at
> its peak. But, the 'decline'--moral decline--  started when it became part
> of The Empire. Actual dates would be 'rough guides' to such a take on its
> history.
>
> I also agree that "obvious implications" is ironic--surely I did not feel
> it as you did, since I want to trust "the narrator" more than I should
> sometimes--- but I might still suggest that it supports the notion of
> historical decline. Just because they are a paranoid group which mans
> watchtowers along the Military Frontier does not mean the history behind it
> is not relevant to TRPs vision.
>
> We know THAT about the paranoids in his fiction, it seems?
>
> Or am I missiing ALL THE IRONY?.....in which case I don't get this part of
> the text.
>
> Mark
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: János Székely <miksaapja at gmail.com>
> To: Mark Kohut < markekohut at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pynchon -l < pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:17:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....
>
> Well I think Trieste was never as open and cosmopolitan as in Joyce's and
> Svevo's time. "Obvious implications for the Macedonian Question" seems to be
> sheer irony as there was simply no chance for "Turkish indundation" in the
> Adriatic region. The "dedicated cadre" of New Uskoks are full-blown
> paranoids.
>
>
>
>
> 2008/1/23, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:
> >
> >   Yes, uphill in many important ways. BUT
> >
> > My suggestion , however, is this:
> > Pynchon's vison embraces the sea and seaports.
> >  Pynchon's vision, of course, loves freedom--- NOT being under an
> > Empire, especially Austro-Hungarian.
> >
> > And Pynchon's vision does not embrace railways and coal. Nor anything
> > Austrian.
> >
> > I suggest that for Pynchon, Trieste used to be a good place,
> > historically, full of an "anarchic" mix of peoples, trading
> > and travelling on the seas, living Stateless, so to speak...
> >
> > I suggest that Cyprian on the docks is working at a nodal point in
> > Trieste's
> > history....
> >
> >
> >  ----- Original Message ----
> > From: János Székely < miksaapja at gmail.com>
> > To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: pynchon -l < pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:00:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....
> >
> > Uphill, rather.
> > Trieste wilingly sought the Habsburgs' protection in the 14th century,
> > and from then on, it benefited from being Austria's only major seaport,
> > especially with the decilne of Venice as a political and economic power. As
> > for autonomy, it was a Free Imperial City until the Empire existed.
> >
> > 2008/1/22, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:
> > >
> > >   Michael Bailey wrote:
> > >
> > >  "Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy ,
> > > on the border of Slovenia.  James Joyce was teaching English
> > > there from 1904-1915, give or take, off and on...
> > > port, crossroads, cultural centre, part of the Austro-Hungarian
> > > Empire until WWI
> > >
> > > ---Cyprian is monitoring the docks"
> > >
> > >  "Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy,
> > >
> > > The city's role as the principal Austrian commercial port and
> > > shipbuilding center was later emphasized by the foundation of the Austrian
> > > Lloyd <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Triestino> merchant shipping
> > > line in 1836 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1836>, whose headquarters
> > > stood at the corner of the Piazza Grande and Sanita. By 1913 Austrian Lloyd
> > > had a fleet of 62 ships comprising a total of 236,000 tons. [1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste#_note-0>
> > >
> > > The modern Austro-Hungarian Navy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Navy>also used Trieste's shipbuilding facilities and as a base. The construction
> > > of the first major trunk railway in the Empire, the Vienna-Trieste Austrian
> > > Southern Railway
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Southern_Railway>, was
> > > completed in 1857 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1857>, a valuable
> > > asset for trade and the supply of coal."
> > >
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Trieste, virtually autonomous politically until the 17th
> > > Century............devolves, descends, to
> > > this........................................
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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