Trieste goes downhill.....

Thu Jan 24 13:47:54 CST 2008

Mark,

yes, maybe this is the way Pynchon sees it; I just wanted to say that
Trieste would have remained one of the no-name Adriatic towns if it didn't
offer itself to the then not-so-powerful Habsburgs in the late 14th century.
(It was either Venice or the Hungarian Kingdom then, and Trieste chose the
third option to keep afloat).

The point is that the Military Frontier, having had lost its raison d'etre,
was non-existent by the time Cyprian arrives on the scene. (Going to fix it
in the Wiki.) So Pynchon may suggest that the Neo-Uskoks are living in some
anachronistic millenary dreamworld (note the Gnostic imagery in "sparks" and
"deliverance to light"). Definitely there were no implications for the
Macedonian Question. Which seems to be even more complicated than today's
Balkan conflicts. It appears to be one of those situations in which the best
solution is to preserve the unjust status quo. Young and dynamic Bulgaria
wanted national unity with its West Macedonian Slavic brethren, who spoke a
dialect close to Bulgarian Bulgarian,  but as far as I know, they considered
themselves to be Macedonians and  part of the just-reborn Bulgarian nation.
On the other hand, Bulgaria wanted an exit to the Aegean Sea in East
Macedonia, which was a multiethnic region, with only a small Bulgarian
minority. Greece also wanted East Macedonia on an ethnic and historical
basis, while Serbia aspired to West Macedonia. So it looked quite reasonable
not to change anything, and let the whole region remain with Ottoman Turkey
(which was the "Sick Man of Europe" anyway).

2008/1/24, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:Janos,

I think you must be right about Trieste's cosmopolitanism at this point in
time. I have always heard/read that. When I said that Trieste was "a nodal
point", I was thinking it was then, as a consequence of its rich past, at
its peak. But, the 'decline'--moral decline--  started when it became part
of The Empire. Actual dates would be 'rough guides' to such a take on its
history.

I also agree that "obvious implications" is ironic--surely I did not feel it
as you did, since I want to trust "the narrator" more than I should
sometimes--- but I might still suggest that it supports the notion of
historical decline. Just because they are a paranoid group which mans
watchtowers along the Military Frontier does not mean the history behind it
is not relevant to TRPs vision.

We know THAT about the paranoids in his fiction, it seems?

Or am I missiing ALL THE IRONY?.....in which case I don't get this part of
the text.

Mark

----- Original Message ----
From: János Székely <miksaapja at gmail.com>
To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:17:50 AM
Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....

Well I think Trieste was never as open and cosmopolitan as in Joyce's and
Svevo's time. "Obvious implications for the Macedonian Question" seems to be
sheer irony as there was simply no chance for "Turkish indundation" in the
Adriatic region. The "dedicated cadre" of New Uskoks are full-blown
paranoids.

2008/1/23, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:
>
>   Yes, uphill in many important ways. BUT
>
> My suggestion , however, is this:
> Pynchon's vison embraces the sea and seaports.
>  Pynchon's vision, of course, loves freedom--- NOT being under an Empire,
> especially Austro-Hungarian.
>
> And Pynchon's vision does not embrace railways and coal. Nor anything
> Austrian.
>
> I suggest that for Pynchon, Trieste used to be a good place, historically,
> full of an "anarchic" mix of peoples, trading
> and travelling on the seas, living Stateless, so to speak...
>
> I suggest that Cyprian on the docks is working at a nodal point in
> Trieste's
> history....
>
>
>  ----- Original Message ----
> From: János Székely < miksaapja at gmail.com>
> To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pynchon -l < pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:00:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....
>
> Uphill, rather.
> Trieste wilingly sought the Habsburgs' protection in the 14th century, and
> from then on, it benefited from being Austria's only major seaport,
> especially with the decilne of Venice as a political and economic power. As
> for autonomy, it was a Free Imperial City until the Empire existed.
>
> 2008/1/22, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>:
> >
> >   Michael Bailey wrote:
> >
> > "Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy ,
> > on the border of Slovenia.  James Joyce was teaching English
> > there from 1904-1915, give or take, off and on...
> > port, crossroads, cultural centre, part of the Austro-Hungarian
> > Empire until WWI
> >
> > ---Cyprian is monitoring the docks"
> >
> > "Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy,
> >
> > The city's role as the principal Austrian commercial port and
> > shipbuilding center was later emphasized by the foundation of the Austrian
> > Lloyd <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Triestino> merchant shipping
> > line in 1836 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1836>, whose headquarters
> > stood at the corner of the Piazza Grande and Sanita. By 1913 Austrian Lloyd
> > had a fleet of 62 ships comprising a total of 236,000 tons. [1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste#_note-0>
> >
> > The modern Austro-Hungarian Navy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Navy>also used Trieste's shipbuilding facilities and as a base. The construction
> > of the first major trunk railway in the Empire, the Vienna-Trieste Austrian
> > Southern Railway<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Southern_Railway>,
> > was completed in 1857 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1857>, a valuable
> > asset for trade and the supply of coal."
> >
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > Trieste, virtually autonomous politically until the 17th
> > Century............devolves, descends, to
> > this........................................
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
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> >
>
>
>
>
>

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>
>
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