AtD, naming

Bryan Snyder wilsonistrey at gmail.com
Mon May 5 14:39:15 CDT 2008


I wasn¹t really disagreeing with Page.  I understand far too little about
even the ³act of naming² to try to counterpoint anything he said.  I was
just trying to add to it... I thought that my statement was in agreement
with Page¹s thoughts.

But if someone could maybe explain more about what exactly Ludwig means...
What is it we cannot speak of, and is silence really a silence ... Or a
logical silence, which gives way to those metaphorical paths, I would be
greatly appreciated!

I thought I was adding to what Page said.  I was saying that I think the
famous Wittgenstein line is often not mentioned (ironic) when critics and
enthusiasts muse over Pynchon¹s obvious ... ³missing point² his ³plot which
has no name², his ³holy center² .... His ³glory that will come to part the
sky²... All that.

But in Pynchon, in all his works, I think its clear he struggles as
author/artist with the idea of transcendence vs. earthliness...   Did we
come from above or from below?  Are we destined to depart upwards or
downwards... Gnosticism or naturalism... Logic vs. love...

As the rocket shows... And as is stated in Against the Day... Go far enough
up and you¹re coming back down again.

I think Pynchon¹s perpetual circling of this unspeakable, ineffable and
mostly incomprehensible set of questions... Is showcasing that epistemology
and ontology will push into each other if you push the questions hard
enough.  

He expresses the tension that humans feel by these answers being largely
unanswered by definition of the questions.  This tension created by the
pressure of these two ends leads to the human logic that began as a way to
understand nature and once realizing nature is  ³lovable but
scatterbrained², or more sinisterly...totally indifferent to the logic of
the species it created, then humans (and more specifically those who create
the cultures of thought) turned completely to the ³Western Order of Analysis
and Death² ...giving way to the either/or mentality that produced
binary...that produced SHROUD and SHOCK... Computers... (see Vineland...
That Hacker called God...)

That either/or mentality that pervades GR.... Gives way to the answer to
these questions probably being BOTH, ALL... NONE... And you push that set of
questions far enough and ³BOTH² and ³NONE²... Are equal...

But see... I should have remained silent.

B






On 5/5/08 2:05 PM, "Mark Kohut" <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Page can defend himself, and I am not speaking for him.
>   
> However, my understanding of Wittgenstein's meaning is this:
>   
>  
>   
> When he spoke of 'what could be said" here, he meant in some logical,
> scientific-like way,
>   
> going back to Kant (and others).
>   
>  
>   
> He meant, say most, I think, that what can not be said "logically" must be
> passed over
>   
> in a scientifically philosophical way of understanding.
>   
>  
>   
>  He cleared the way (in his mind and others) for METAPHOR, poetry, art and,
> some say, a possible type of religious mysticism. All of the 'scientific-like'
> statements---let's call them, simplictically, 'facts', are few, so all of the
> stuff passed over in "silence" is what we might
>   
> endlessly 'talk'--thru poetry, art, unstupid theological
> words................(and more)
>   
>  
>   
> 
> 
> David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> I think there's a big difference between the statement by Bryan and
>> that by Page, and I think Bryan's is more correct. It's not that
>> something can't be SAID, it's just that nothing can be adequately
>> definitive. We are left with approximations, metaphors, symbolisms,
>> all of which have aspects of the thing which is unspeakable, but which
>> are important and need to be said.
>> 
>> David Morris
>> 
>> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Bryan Snyder wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Holy Center is ALWAYS APPROACHING... But never reached...
>> 
>>> > On 5/2/08 7:18 PM, "Page" wrote:
>>> > 7 What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.
>>> > So, to my mind, there is something very important about the distinction
>>> between what can be named and what cannot. It is the difference between what
>>> can be said and what cannot be said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it
> now. 
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