TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery

[Mark Kohut]

So, fictionally, a son of the narrating consciousness, a writer of genius, is dead....

Sons.....they inherit, in general fictional metaphoric terms.....the world
made by their fathers....

Fathers and Sons....very famous recent Russian novel..about a "lost' son. 
A marginal young man trying to find a place in a very narrow closed world?

D's son found no place in Master of P. 

P.S. Remember TRP on fathers and sons in GR overtly?...in AtD, at length?


--- On Fri, 9/26/08, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> To: "Lawrence Bryan" <lebryan at speakeasy.net>, "Bekah" <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: "Richard Ryan" <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>, "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 10:30 AM
> I just want to say---and I guess it has been said and
> I've forgotten or
> we all know it and it is unsaid---that the most major
> historical difference between the real Dostoevsky and
> Coetzee's is that Dostoevsky's stepson did not die. 
>  
> 
> So, the grief and mourning theme is entirely created for
> Coetzee's themes. 
> 
> A-and, I may repeat myself, but as in Pynchon, I think that
> Bekah's find of the Yelagin Island fictional cemetery is
> a way---in a novel about unjust social conditions; about a
> society/country/city divided dramatically by them---to imply
> that a playland for the wealthy is Hell, is
> to start the writer's overarching moral vision from the
> get-go.
> 
> MK
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 9/26/08, Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> > To: "Lawrence Bryan"
> <lebryan at speakeasy.net>
> > Cc: "Richard Ryan"
> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>, "Pynchon-L"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:48 AM
> > On Sep 25, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Lawrence Bryan wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > Thank you this, Bekah, I think. Is there anything
> more
> > we can say  
> > > about the book?
> > 
> > I hope so - my section starts on Sunday and I'll
> be
> > working more from  
> > a comparison of Dostoevsky's life and times to
> that of
> > the fictional  
> > D. with some references to "The Demons."
> > 
> > I would say more about that essay but I don't want
> to
> > indulge in  
> > spoilers.  I just thought that the bit about the
> Yelagin
> > Island  
> > particularly good - not necessarily definitive because
> it
> > could  
> > define *any* island cemetery - the question of why
> Yelagin 
> > still  
> > open.   Perhaps there are no island cemeteries in
> > Petersburg or  
> > perhaps there is some other reason Coetzee chose the
> island
> > of the  
> > rich and famous for his place of hell.   ?  Don't
> know.
> > 
> > Bekah
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I studied topology at the university. To moderate
> a
> > section of this  
> > > book it would have been better to have spent my
> time
> > studying  
> > > tropology.
> > >
> > > I sent  a request  off to the Russian consulate
> in San
> > Francisco to  
> > > see if there ever was a cemetery on Yelagin. I
> doubt
> > I'll even get  
> > > a reply.
> > >
> > > I was looking at my map of St. Petersburg to see
> if I
> > could trace  
> > > the movements in the book. Alas the names are in
> > Cyrillic in tiny  
> > > print. The first street mentioned in the book is
> not
> > even labeled  
> > > on my map. There are four large islands at the
> mouth
> > of the Neva  
> > > only one of which is named on my map. I used the
> > Google translator  
> > > to see what Yelagin Island looked like. OCTPOD is
> > island but the  
> > > named one wasn't Yelagin.
> > >
> > > Reminds me of seeing signs for PECTOPAHs here and
> > there in  
> > > Petersburg. After spending sometime trying to
> > pronounce Russian  
> > > words I realized with the "P" being
> like our
> > "R", the "C" like our  
> > > "S" and the "H" like our
> > "N", it was pronounced, more or less,  
> > > "RESTORAN". That explained why pictures
> with
> > ads almost always had  
> > > bowls of borsht. I guess the island would be
> > pronounced "YELAGIN  
> > > OSTROD".
> > >
> > > Lawrence
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 25, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Bekah wrote:
> > >
> > >> I certainly wasn't criticizing Coetzee
> for
> > apparently   
> > >> fictionalizing a cemetery.  Rather,  now that
> > I'm pretty well  
> > >> satisfied as to the fact Yelegin Island was
> > probably never an  
> > >> actual cemetery in which Pavel might be
> > fictionally buried,  I'm  
> > >> curious as to why Coetzee used it.
> > >>
> > >> One of the aristocratic families in "The
> > Idiot" has a home on the  
> > >> island, it's mentioned in passing and
> > that's as much as their is  
> > >> about Yelagin Island in the works of
> Dostoevsky.
> > >>
> > >> Yelagin Island is the turf of the aristocracy
> but
> > they're  
> > >> certainly not dead or even dying in the mid
> 1860s.
> > >>
> > >> Yelagin is minor character in Gogol's
> > "Dead Souls" but this seems  
> > >> unrelated.  very much alive.
> > >>
> > >> So that leaves the idea of an island
> surrounded by
> > a river - the  
> > >> River Styx perhaps which is  the mythological
> 
> > boundary between  
> > >> earth and hell - where D. seems to be.
> > >> Bingo (perhaps):
> > >>
> > >> From ON MOURNING:
> > >> THE TROPE OF LOOKING BACKWARDS
> > >> IN J. M. COETZEE’S THE MASTER OF PETERSBURG
> > >> http://tinyurl.com/3tch39
> > >>
> > >> "In the context of the novel, Yelagin
> Island,
> > the island of the  
> > >> dead, plays the role of the place and space
> that
> > sets off  
> > >> mourning. The river on the border of
> Petersburg
> > separating the  
> > >> town from the cemetery on Yelagin Island
> literally
> > and  
> > >> symbolically delimits/separates (the world
> of) the
> > dead from (the  
> > >> world of) the living. Gillian Rose argues
> that
> > mourning is  
> > >> impossible within the city walls, it can only
> take
> > place outside  
> > >> the walls of the city. Rose also adds that
> without
> > commemoration  
> > >> (the coming of) an ending is impossible
> (102).[9]
> > Performing the  
> > >> act of mourning (that of lamentation and
> crying)
> > is (made)  
> > >> possible for Dostoevsky outside the walls of
> > Petersburg. This is  
> > >> where he gives free rein to his feelings.
> Lying
> > upon the mound,  
> > >> crying, he observes himself and ironically
> > remarks: “what a Jewish  
> > >> performance” (Coetzee 9). The river that
> > Dostoevsky crosses with  
> > >> Anna and Matryona to get to the cemetary on
> > Yelagin island alludes  
> > >> to the river Styx. With their symbolic
> crossing
> > through the river,  
> > >> Dostoevsky, Anna and Matryona walk neither
> among
> > the dead, nor  
> > >> among the living; their crossing takes place
> in an
> > in-between  
> > >> space and is an in-between state like that of
> > mourning,  
> > >> “belonging” to two worlds at the same
> time.
> > Also, the image of the  
> > >> dogs on the island “skulking among the
> trees
> > waiting for the  
> > >> mourners to leave before they begin their
> > digging” (Coetzee 7)  
> > >> evokes the figure of Cerberus, the hound of
> Hades,
> > the monstrous  
> > >> three-headed dog."
> > >>
> > >> There's a lot more about this aspect and
> the
> > use of mythology in  
> > >> TMoP at that url.  From the second paragraph:
> > >>
> > >> "Reminiscences and traces of the myths
> of
> > Daedalus, Penelope, and  
> > >> Orpheus are at play in the novel, informing
> > Dostoevsky’s mourning  
> > >> and his “tale of Pavel.” These stories
> play a
> > crucial role, as the  
> > >> fictional Dostoevsky himself remarks: “One
> by
> > one, in fact, the  
> > >> old stories are coming back, stories he heard
> from
> > his grandmother  
> > >> and did not know the meaning of, but stored
> up
> > unwittingly like  
> > >> bones for the future. A great ossuary of
> stories
> > from before  
> > >> history began, built up and tended by the
> > people” (Coetzee 126,  
> > >> italics mine). The question to be answered
> then
> > would be what the  
> > >> meaning of these stories is, why they are
> hidden
> > behind the text  
> > >> and what their function is. I argue that
> these
> > myths are there as  
> > >> subtexts to Dostoevsky’s mourning, their
> > function being to aid the  
> > >> father’s work of mourning and help him
> embed the
> > trauma of loss  
> > >> into stories."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bekah
> > >>
> > >> On Sep 25, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Richard Ryan
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I also have checked extensively and can
> find
> > no evidence that it  
> > >>> has a cemetery on it.  For hundreds of
> years
> > the island was home  
> > >>> to a manorial estate and private park -
> in the
> > 20th century the  
> > >>> Soviets opened the grounds to the public
> and
> > turned the palace  
> > >>> into a museum.  Today the palace and park
> are
> > among the the  
> > >>> city's major tourist attractions.
> > >>>
> > >>> Coetzee often appears to be taking almost
> > Joycean pains to  
> > >>> recreate 19th century Petersburg, so if
> in
> > fact there has never  
> > >>> been a cemetery on Yelagin Island we
> might
> > take it as one of his  
> > >>> little jokes on his more historically
> > obsessive readership (or at  
> > >>> least a clue that we should take nothing
> in
> > the novel too  
> > >>> literally).  After all, none of the
> central
> > events in TMoP  
> > >>> actually happened, so it shouldn't be
> > surprising that one of the  
> > >>> first locations described doesn't
> exist. 
> > Chapter Two is full of   
> > >>> tropes - the ferryman, the stricken dogs
> -
> > that suggest Coetzee  
> > >>> is invoking a mythical Land of the Dead,
> not
> > an actual place.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bekah
> > <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>> From: Bekah
> <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > >>> Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The
> cemetery
> > >>> To: "Richard Ryan"
> > <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> > >>> Cc: "Pynchon-L"
> > <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > >>> Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 10:03
> AM
> > >>>
> > >>> I thought I looked and looked and could
> find
> > no evidence of a
> > >>> cemetery ever having been on Yelagin
> Island.
> > Anyone else?
> > >>>
> > >>> Bekah
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sep 24, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Richard Ryan
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > "They take the little ferryboat
> to
> > Yelagin Island, which he has  
> > >>> not
> > >>> > visited for years. But for the two
> old
> > women in black, they are
> > >>> > the only passengers. It is a cold,
> misty
> > day. As they approach, a
> > >>> > dog, grey and emaciated, begins to
> lope
> > up and down the jetty,
> > >>> > whining eagerly. The ferryman swings
> a
> > boathook at it; it retreats
> > >>> > to a safe distance. Isle of dogs, he
> > thinks: are there packs of
> > >>> > them skulking among the trees,
> waiting
> > for the mourners to leave
> > >>> > before they begin their
> digging?"
> > >>> >
> > >>> > To quote (from memory) William
> Carlos
> > Williams's introduction to
> > >>> > HOWL: "Ladies and gentlemen, we
> are
> > going through Hell."
> > >>> >
> > >>> > By page seven of TMoP, Coetzee has
> > already deployed a set of
> > >>> > allusions which will continue to
> resonate
> > throughout the book: to
> > >>> > Dante, to Rilke, and, of course,
> always
> > and everywhere, to the
> > >>> > historical double of the book's
> > fictional protagonist, Dostoevsky.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > The visit to the Land of the Dead in
> the
> > second chapter - invoking
> > >>> > immediately so many classic visits
> to the
> > Underworld (Orpheus,
> > >>> > Odysseus, Aeneas, Leopold
> Bloom....), and
> > accompanied by all the
> > >>> > necessary signs (ferryman, dogs,
> widows)
> > establishes a re-occuring
> > >>> > pattern in the novel: the Living in
> > search of the Dead.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I'd suggest we'll find, as
> the
> > novel progresses, that TMoP is -
> > >>> > among other things, but perhaps
> > pre-eminently - a mediation on
> > >>> > Necromancy, on way that the
> survivors
> > attempt to resurrect the
> > >>> > people they've lost.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >