TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery

[Mark Kohut]

I think that I think a 'cultural' accuracy---which we will be talking about more---is a lot of what Coetzee is trying for. Yes, never an historical literal accuracy.


--- On Fri, 9/26/08, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> To: "Lawrence Bryan" <lebryan at speakeasy.net>, "Bekah" <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>, "Richard Ryan" <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 7:36 PM
> Richard,
> 
> Forgot the mentioning of the predeceased son. Sorry. 
> 
> Agreed in general....but the theme of mourning, ghosts,
> necromancy as a metphor as you wrote, all come out of the
> fictional death, yes?
> 
> Maybe an alternative psychic history? Against a (mostly)
> real Petersburg?
> 
> MK
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 9/26/08, Richard Ryan
> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Richard Ryan <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> > To: "Lawrence Bryan"
> <lebryan at speakeasy.net>, "Bekah"
> <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>, markekohut at yahoo.com
> > Cc: "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 5:40 PM
> > Hi Mark -
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The fact that the historical
> > Dostoevsky's stepson did not pre-decease him cam
> up
> > last week, and it's
> > prominently mentioned in every review of the novel
> that
> > I've seen - but
> > it's also, I'd argue, beside the point.  Or
> > rather, once a reader has
> > noted that, it's time to move on where historical
> > parallels are
> > concerned.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > That Dostoevsky's stepson did not die in 1869 or
> that
> > Yelagin Island,
> > as far as we've been able to learn, has no
> cemetery -
> > although
> > interesting from a tangential standpoint - only
> reinforce
> > my growing
> > conviction that TMoP should not be read as a
> historical
> > novel.  The
> > events described in TMoP *didn't* happen;  the
> > Dostoevsky of TMoP is a
> > creation of Coetzee's imagination.  The St
> Peterburg
> > of this novel is
> > extraordinarily vivid, but there's no reason to
> think
> > that Coetzee
> > wants us to measure his imaginative success by some
> > standard of
> > historical or cultural accuracy.    Clearly, Coetzee
> is
> > playing with
> > our notions of the fictional and the biographical.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Perhaps it might be be most useful to think as an
> > "alternative history"
> > novel, a sort of "Man in the High Castle"
> for the
> > literary set.  The
> > historical backdrop gives the characters and scene of
> TMoP
> > a
> > particularly immediate quality (as does the third
> person
> > present point
> > of view which we also mentioned) - but it's not a
> > standard against
> > which the book needs to be verified.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > RR
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 9/26/08, Mark Kohut
> > <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> > To: "Lawrence Bryan"
> > <lebryan at speakeasy.net>, "Bekah"
> > <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > Cc: "Richard Ryan"
> > <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>,
> "Pynchon-L"
> > <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 10:30 AM
> > 
> > I just want to say---and I guess it has been said and
> > I've forgotten or
> > we all know it and it is unsaid---that the most major
> > historical difference
> > between the real Dostoevsky and Coetzee's is that
> > Dostoevsky's stepson
> > did not die.   
> > 
> > So, the grief and mourning theme is entirely created
> for
> > Coetzee's themes. 
> > 
> > A-and, I may repeat myself, but as in Pynchon, I think
> that
> > Bekah's find of
> > the Yelagin Island fictional cemetery is a way---in a
> novel
> > about unjust social
> > conditions; about a society/country/city divided
> > dramatically by them---to imply
> > that a playland for the wealthy is Hell, is
> > to start the writer's overarching moral vision
> from the
> > get-go.
> > 
> > MK
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 9/26/08, Bekah
> <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > > Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
> > > To: "Lawrence Bryan"
> > <lebryan at speakeasy.net>
> > > Cc: "Richard Ryan"
> > <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>,
> > "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:48 AM
> > > On Sep 25, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Lawrence Bryan
> wrote:
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > Thank you this, Bekah, I think. Is there
> anything
> > more
> > > we can say  
> > > > about the book?
> > > 
> > > I hope so - my section starts on Sunday and
> I'll
> > be
> > > working more from  
> > > a comparison of Dostoevsky's life and times
> to
> > that of
> > > the fictional  
> > > D. with some references to "The
> Demons."
> > > 
> > > I would say more about that essay but I don't
> want
> > to
> > > indulge in  
> > > spoilers.  I just thought that the bit about the
> > Yelagin
> > > Island  
> > > particularly good - not necessarily definitive
> because
> > it
> > > could  
> > > define *any* island cemetery - the question of
> why
> > Yelagin 
> > > still  
> > > open.   Perhaps there are no island cemeteries in
> > > Petersburg or  
> > > perhaps there is some other reason Coetzee chose
> the
> > island
> > > of the  
> > > rich and famous for his place of hell.   ? 
> Don't
> > know.
> > > 
> > > Bekah
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > I studied topology at the university. To
> moderate
> > a
> > > section of this  
> > > > book it would have been better to have spent
> my
> > time
> > > studying  
> > > > tropology.
> > > >
> > > > I sent  a request  off to the Russian
> consulate
> > in San
> > > Francisco to  
> > > > see if there ever was a cemetery on Yelagin.
> I
> > doubt
> > > I'll even get  
> > > > a reply.
> > > >
> > > > I was looking at my map of St. Petersburg to
> see
> > if I
> > > could trace  
> > > > the movements in the book. Alas the names
> are in
> > > Cyrillic in tiny  
> > > > print. The first street mentioned in the
> book is
> > not
> > > even labeled  
> > > > on my map. There are four large islands at
> the
> > mouth
> > > of the Neva  
> > > > only one of which is named on my map. I used
> the
> > > Google translator  
> > > > to see what Yelagin Island looked like.
> OCTPOD is
> > > island but the  
> > > > named one wasn't Yelagin.
> > > >
> > > > Reminds me of seeing signs for PECTOPAHs
> here and
> > > there in  
> > > > Petersburg. After spending sometime trying
> to
> > > pronounce Russian  
> > > > words I realized with the "P"
> being
> > like our
> > > "R", the "C" like our  
> > > > "S" and the "H" like our
> > > "N", it was pronounced, more or less,  
> > > > "RESTORAN". That explained why
> pictures
> > with
> > > ads almost always had  
> > > > bowls of borsht. I guess the island would be
> > > pronounced "YELAGIN  
> > > > OSTROD".
> > > >
> > > > Lawrence
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 25, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Bekah wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I certainly wasn't criticizing
> Coetzee
> > for
> > > apparently   
> > > >> fictionalizing a cemetery.  Rather,  now
> that
> > > I'm pretty well  
> > > >> satisfied as to the fact Yelegin Island
> was
> > > probably never an  
> > > >> actual cemetery in which Pavel might be
> > > fictionally buried,  I'm  
> > > >> curious as to why Coetzee used it.
> > > >>
> > > >> One of the aristocratic families in
> "The
> > > Idiot" has a home on the  
> > > >> island, it's mentioned in passing
> and
> > > that's as much as their is  
> > > >> about Yelagin Island in the works of
> > Dostoevsky.
> > > >>
> > > >> Yelagin Island is the turf of the
> aristocracy
> > but
> > > they're  
> > > >> certainly not dead or even dying in the
> mid
> > 1860s.
> > > >>
> > > >> Yelagin is minor character in
> Gogol's
> > > "Dead Souls" but this seems  
> > > >> unrelated.  very much alive.
> > > >>
> > > >> So that leaves the idea of an island
> > surrounded by
> > > a river - the  
> > > >> River Styx perhaps which is  the
> mythological
> > 
> > > boundary between  
> > > >> earth and hell - where D. seems to be.
> > > >> Bingo (perhaps):
> > > >>
> > > >> From ON MOURNING:
> > > >> THE TROPE OF LOOKING BACKWARDS
> > > >> IN J. M. COETZEE’S THE MASTER OF
> PETERSBURG
> > > >> http://tinyurl.com/3tch39
> > > >>
> > > >> "In the context of the novel,
> Yelagin
> > Island,
> > > the island of the  
> > > >> dead, plays the role of the place and
> space
> > that
> > > sets off  
> > > >> mourning. The river on the border of
> > Petersburg
> > > separating the  
> > > >> town from the cemetery on Yelagin Island
> > literally
> > > and  
> > > >> symbolically delimits/separates (the
> world
> > of) the
> > > dead from (the  
> > > >> world of) the living. Gillian Rose
> argues
> > that
> > > mourning is  
> > > >> impossible within the city walls, it can
> only
> > take
> > > place outside  
> > > >> the walls of the city. Rose also adds
> that
> > without
> > > commemoration  
> > > >> (the coming of) an ending is impossible
> > (102).[9]
> > > Performing the  
> > > >> act of mourning (that of lamentation and
> > crying)
> > > is (made)  
> > > >> possible for Dostoevsky outside the
> walls of
> > > Petersburg. This is  
> > > >> where he gives free rein to his
> feelings.
> > Lying
> > > upon the mound,  
> > > >> crying, he observes himself and
> ironically
> > > remarks: “what a Jewish  
> > > >> performance” (Coetzee 9). The river
> that
> > > Dostoevsky crosses with  
> > > >> Anna and Matryona to get to the cemetary
> on
> > > Yelagin island alludes  
> > > >> to the river Styx. With their symbolic
> > crossing
> > > through the river,  
> > > >> Dostoevsky, Anna and Matryona walk
> neither
> > among
> > > the dead, nor  
> > > >> among the living; their crossing takes
> place
> > in an
> > > in-between  
> > > >> space and is an in-between state like
> that of
> > > mourning,  
> > > >> “belonging” to two worlds at the
> same
> > time.
> > > Also, the image of the  
> > > >> dogs on the island “skulking among the
> > trees
> > > waiting for the  
> > > >> mourners to leave before they begin
> their
> > > digging” (Coetzee 7)  
> > > >> evokes the figure of Cerberus, the hound
> of
> > Hades,
> > > the monstrous  
> > > >> three-headed dog."
> > > >>
> > > >> There's a lot more about this aspect
> and
> > the
> > > use of mythology in  
> > > >> TMoP at that url.  From the second
> paragraph:
> > > >>
> > > >> "Reminiscences and traces of the
> myths
> > of
> > > Daedalus, Penelope, and  
> > > >> Orpheus are at play in the novel,
> informing
> > > Dostoevsky’s mourning  
> > > >> and his “tale of Pavel.” These
> stories
> > play a
> > > crucial role, as the  
> > > >> fictional Dostoevsky himself remarks:
> “One
> > by
> > > one, in fact, the  
> > > >> old stories are coming back, stories he
> heard
> > from
> > > his grandmother  
> > > >> and did not know the meaning of, but
> stored
> > up
> > > unwittingly like  
> > > >> bones for the future. A great ossuary of
> > stories
> > > from before  
> > > >> history began, built up and tended by
> the
> > > people” (Coetzee 126,  
> > > >> italics mine). The question to be
> answered
> > then
> > > would be what the  
> > > >> meaning of these stories is, why they
> are
> > hidden
> > > behind the text  
> > > >> and what their function is. I argue that
> > these
> > > myths are there as  
> > > >> subtexts to Dostoevsky’s mourning,
> their
> > > function being to aid the  
> > > >> father’s work of mourning and help him
> > embed the
> > > trauma of loss  
> > > >> into stories."
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bekah
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sep 25, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Richard
> Ryan
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I also have checked extensively and
> can
> > find
> > > no evidence that it  
> > > >>> has a cemetery on it.  For hundreds
> of
> > years
> > > the island was home  
> > > >>> to a manorial estate and private
> park -
> > in the
> > > 20th century the  
> > > >>> Soviets opened the grounds to the
> public
> > and
> > > turned the palace  
> > > >>> into a museum.  Today the palace and
> park
> > are
> > > among the the  
> > > >>> city's major tourist
> attractions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Coetzee often appears to be taking
> almost
> > > Joycean pains to  
> > > >>> recreate 19th century Petersburg, so
> if
> > in
> > > fact there has never  
> > > >>> been a cemetery on Yelagin Island we
> > might
> > > take it as one of his  
> > > >>> little jokes on his more
> historically
> > > obsessive readership (or at  
> > > >>> least a clue that we should take
> nothing
> > in
> > > the novel too  
> > > >>> literally).  After all, none of the
> > central
> > > events in TMoP  
> > > >>> actually happened, so it
> shouldn't be
> > > surprising that one of the  
> > > >>> first locations described
> doesn't
> > exist. 
> > > Chapter Two is full of   
> > > >>> tropes - the ferryman, the stricken
> dogs
> > -
> > > that suggest Coetzee  
> > > >>> is invoking a mythical Land of the
> Dead,
> > not
> > > an actual place.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bekah
> > > <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >>> From: Bekah
> > <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > > >>> Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two -
> The
> > cemetery
> > > >>> To: "Richard Ryan"
> > > <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> > > >>> Cc: "Pynchon-L"
> > > <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > > >>> Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008,
> 10:03
> > AM
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I thought I looked and looked and
> could
> > find
> > > no evidence of a
> > > >>> cemetery ever having been on Yelagin
> > Island.
> > > Anyone else?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Bekah
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Sep 24, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Richard
> Ryan
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > "They take the little
> ferryboat
> > to
> > > Yelagin Island, which he has  
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> > visited for years. But for the
> two
> > old
> > > women in black, they are
> > > >>> > the only passengers. It is a
> cold,
> > misty
> > > day. As they approach, a
> > > >>> > dog, grey and emaciated, begins
> to
> > lope
> > > up and down the jetty,
> > > >>> > whining eagerly. The ferryman
> swings
> > a
> > > boathook at it; it retreats
> > > >>> > to a safe distance. Isle of
> dogs, he
> > > thinks: are there packs of
> > > >>> > them skulking among the trees,
> > waiting
> > > for the mourners to leave
> > > >>> > before they begin their
> > digging?"
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > To quote (from memory) William
> > Carlos
> > > Williams's introduction to
> > > >>> > HOWL: "Ladies and
> gentlemen, we
> > are
> > > going through Hell."
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > By page seven of TMoP, Coetzee
> has
> > > already deployed a set of
> > > >>> > allusions which will continue
> to
> > resonate
> > > throughout the book: to
> > > >>> > Dante, to Rilke, and, of
> course,
> > always
> > > and everywhere, to the
> > > >>> > historical double of the
> book's
> > > fictional protagonist, Dostoevsky.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > The visit to the Land of the
> Dead in
> > the
> > > second chapter - invoking
> > > >>> > immediately so many classic
> visits
> > to the
> > > Underworld (Orpheus,
> > > >>> > Odysseus, Aeneas, Leopold
> > Bloom....), and
> > > accompanied by all the
> > > >>> > necessary signs (ferryman,
> dogs,
> > widows)
> > > establishes a re-occuring
> > > >>> > pattern in the novel: the
> Living in
> > > search of the Dead.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I'd suggest we'll find,
> as
> > the
> > > novel progresses, that TMoP is -
> > > >>> > among other things, but perhaps
> > > pre-eminently - a mediation on
> > > >>> > Necromancy, on way that the
> > survivors
> > > attempt to resurrect the
> > > >>> > people they've lost.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >