TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery

[Bekah]

Yes,  I see TMoP as being in part about grief and mourning; denial  
and  bargaining (early grief process).    And no, I don't see it as a  
historical novel - however,  I think it should be remembered that  
Coetzee is creating the events in this novel as the imaginary origins  
of Demons, (The Possessed).   I think it's also important to remember  
that Coetzee's son died in a suspicious accidental fall only months  
before J.M.  began writing TMoP.  Was it a possible suicide?  Were  
drugs the demon involved in the son's life? -  denial, guilt,  
mourning and more would be involved.  I don't want to go further in  
that direction,  however Coetzee's own pain haunts the book.

  There will be plenty of historically and  psychologically accurate  
people/events coming up along with  plenty of  literary allusions,   
but Coetzee (like TRP, I suppose)  has always felt quite free in his  
authority as an author of fiction,  so he doesn't hesitate to mix  
verifiable fact and imagination.

I see a shift with TMoP in that prior works examined the psychology  
of fictional characters and later works seemed to use fictional  
characters to examine his own psyche,  but with TMop,  Coetzee  
infuses an historical character with much of his own psyche - the  
works form a development of thought.  The change for Dostoevsky was  
sudden - he went from quite liberal to quite conservative during his  
time in Siberia and the Tsar's military - he became more and more  
conservative and spiritual throughout his life- tormented always by  
gambling.

Bekah

On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:

> David Morris writes: "As the creator of his son's world, D is  
> deeply guilty for abandoning
> his son.  In a sense, D is his own son's oppressor and murderer, and
> his guilt moves him to try to deny the reality of his death, and to
> wish to conjure him back into the living world.  Orpheus is explicitly
> referenced in the 2nd chapter."
>
> Right on....most relevant right on observation to me.
>
> Orpheus says his wife's name and D in TMoP reflects on the Name as  
> reflecting the soul...
>
> (I just mentioned fathers/sons in GR because it is there--and in my  
> head. all you say might be relevant....we will come to see.)
>
> You have sparked a memory with Freud mention....Dostoevsky is seen  
> as a writer about the depth psycholgy of human beings......Freud  
> said something about him (and Nietzsche?) being the two writers who  
> had gone where he was now going--into the depths of the psyche...
>
>
> --- On Fri, 9/26/08, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: TMoP - Chapter Two - The cemetery
>> To: markekohut at yahoo.com
>> Cc: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 3:49 PM
>> Good point, Mark.  You've sparked a thought:
>>
>> Coetzee, a writer of genius himself, is at some level also
>> his main
>> character.  This is overtly the case in his _Diary of a Bad
>> Year_.
>>
>> Remember also that Coetzee is an ex-pat from South Africa
>> and an
>> immigrant to Australia.  He is finely attuned to the
>> injustices of an
>> Imperial force over a native populations, and the inherited
>> guilt/shame/responsibility of all that have benefited from
>> or
>> acquiesced to those injustices.
>>
>> As the creator of his son's world, D is deeply guilty
>> for abandoning
>> his son.  In a sense, D is his own son's oppressor and
>> murderer, and
>> his guilt moves him to try to deny the reality of his
>> death, and to
>> wish to conjure him back into the living world.  Orpheus is
>> explicitly
>> referenced in the 2nd chapter.
>>
>> I've only just begun the book, so I don't know
>> where to take this from
>> here.  But if we are to relate this to GR, we should know
>> that GR is
>> DEEPLY rooted in Freud, and the Evil Father in GR goes back
>> to Freud's
>> Oedipus Complex.  In GR the son is primarily the victim of
>> the father.
>>  But Oedipus is the killer in the original tale.  The
>> envious and
>> murderous impulse to posses the object of desire flows both
>> ways
>> between Son and Father.  At a very basic level they are
>> natural
>> enemies.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Mark Kohut
>> <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> So, fictionally, a son of the narrating consciousness,
>> a writer of genius, is dead....
>>>
>>> Sons.....they inherit, in general fictional metaphoric
>> terms.....the world made by their fathers....
>>>
>>> Fathers and Sons....very famous recent Russian
>> novel..about a "lost' son.   A marginal young man
>> trying to find a place in a very narrow closed world?
>>>
>>> D's son found no place in Master of P.
>>>
>>> P.S. Remember TRP on fathers and sons in GR
>> overtly?...in AtD, at length?
>
>
>