IVing IV 'indict a bean burrito', p. 277

[Mark Kohut]

Alice riffs more:
Yeah, that desire for equal footing, that eye to eye, person to
person, is still S&M in P's fictions. Even in the pink cells of
prisons where women make love, one has got to go down.


Profoundly disagree with the first sentence. That is what IS NOT S & M in p's fictions--A... and Doc is always going down on women. Not enough to keep them---they want something more/something other than "love' given this non-dominating way? 

Might P be hinting that, like Frenesi, women (many women) in the new America of relationships that is beginning here, WANT submission?



--- On Thu, 12/3/09, alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: IVing IV 'indict a bean burrito', p. 277
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 10:40 AM
> Mark Kohut wrote:
> > I can only point to her response when Larry guesses
> that 'it is something shitty they won't do to you".......
> >
> > Her "a practical idea might help" response seems to me
> to suggest she just wants a little help in saving herself
> from the shitty thing..........
> 
> Maybe. I don't reads it like that. She is never given a
> chance to tell
> Larry what the situation is. She needs practical ideas, but
> we don't
> know why. Larry fills in her thoughts for us here and he is
> a very
> poor reader of minds (including his own), and a
> particularly poor
> reader of female minds.
> 
> > And yet, the rest of the text is loaded with women who
> need protective men riffs.....Manson/'fucking Daddy',
> etc.....\
> 
> Yeah. protective men. Some protection. She don't need
> protection. She
> needs to be able to look into a man's eyes on equal
> footing. Larry
> can't handle that. He's too tall.
> 
> >
> > In further reflection we might see Penny's observation
> that IF fucking Manson IS like fucking Daddy, he is however
> so short that the women feel
> > some kind of empowerment not just submission,
> physically and psychologically?
> 
> Yeah, that desire for equal footing, that eye to eye,
> person to
> person, is still S&M in P's fictions. Even in the pink
> cells of
> prisons where women make love, one has got to go down.
> 
> 
> >
> > A bit of text about master-slave relationships, bad
> ones by definition, changing due to women's increasing
> societal 'freedom"??????
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: IVing IV 'indict a bean burrito', p.
> 277
> > > To: "P-list" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > > Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 5:07 AM
> > > alice wellintown  wrote:
> > >
> > > > finish her statements, and because he
> assumes the,
> > > "I'll protect you
> > > > position" here, I read it as Larry's
> misreading her
> > > yet again.
> > >
> > > yeah, that wasn't how I was going to finish her
> sentence.
> > > I can't remember how I was going to finish her
> > > sentence...but that
> > > wasn't it...hmmm
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - "The doctor said give him jug band music; it
> seems to
> > > make him feel
> > > just fine!"
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>