The Nobel Prize for War 2009 goes to ...

[Otto]

2009/12/8 Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>:
>>
>> I don't believe that a revolution imposed from outside can be
>> successful. After 9/11 the West went there and smashed to pieces what
>> had been left after more than twenty years of war
>
> a war which we sponsored by supporting what are essentially the Taliban and
> the crop of militant Islamic madrasas.

True enough.

>>
>> and so I think that
>> there is an obligation to put those people in a position where they at
>> least have a chance to govern themselves. This is the premise under
>> which we, the Germans, are there.
>
> The question is how to do it and should this be converted to a peacekeeping
> mission instead of playing to politicized fearmongering.  We are currently
> stuck with taking sides in a civil war and justifying rather than acting to
> correct government corruption. We can't even compel a fair election where
> people are unafraid to vote.
>>

Also true, but a peacekeeping mission would have to be safeguarded by troops.

>> The trick to sell this war to the people was to call it not a war but
>> "nation building". If this is not the true purpose it's illegal.
>
> Obama said it isn't nation building
>>

Did he? He should rethink his position.

>> And if the deadline isn't meant seriously it would be bad but I think that
>> Obama is serious about it. Does anybody really believe the guy is
>> happy about leading those two wars?
>
> He is in a tough spot but he wanted the job, and it doesn't matter what he
> wants to do or likes or is happy about, but whether he has the courage to
> lead. I have no stomach for him spending the wages of the coming generations
> on bankers and wars when this generation refuses to pay their own way.
>

Any other candidate would be in the same position now. Think of the
alternatives, MaCain getting a stroke because of the stress of the
presidency and Palin in the drivers' seat...

> The reason he has lost so much popular support in the US is that he starts
> every fight from an adulterated position and proceeds to work backwards
> until nothing of any meaning is on the table. That is what is happening in
> Afghanistan too.
>

I don't believe that there's "nothing of any meaning is on the table",
I still see a difference to the Bush-years.

> It is this internal corruption that is most in need of
> correction in the US and is the cause for the long term global military
> strategies that are wreaking havoc  in the Middle East, Columbia, Haiti, the
> Congo etc.

So our current situation is not only Bush-caused but caused by
long-term mistakes, making friends with the wrong people and then
dropping them if the political situation changes.

>
> Otto
> nothing personal in any of this. Your arguments are reasonable and well
> stated and I am prone to self indulgent pissiness over current politics.  I
> guess I see the p-List as a place where that is indulged.
>
>

You're welcome.

Well, I think it's been a very reasonable discussion up to now, none
of us wanted these wars, that's our common ground.

Otto