Bernadine Dohrn

[Joseph Tracy]

>>  I think the statement "Guns, like rockets KILL everywhere
>> in Pynchon's fiction. Killing is BAD." is overstated. Well, at  
>> least a teency bit overstated. I too see a strong Buddhist/ 
>> Pythagorean/Jesus/Tolstoyan leaning of Pynchon's thinking, but he  
>> is not absolutist about the issue in my reading. The world is full  
>> of dangerous violent organizations, states and individuals and  
>> there is no indication that P condemns armed resistance to  
>> injustice or domination outright,  though he often seems to show  
>> its ineffectualness, and negative consequences.
>
> Examples: some of the Hereros fight back.Foley shoots Vibe.
>  Frank kills Sloat.  Theign is killed by friends of Vlado. This eye  
> for eye stuff where bastards get their comeuppance P treats with  
> relative neutrality.  Vlado's resistance movement is treated with  
> respect as are local instances of resistance to being bullied. I  
> admit my thesis is weak but I see a gradation here rather than an  
> absolute.  This is a good argument though  I think I may be losing  
> ground but I think it is helpful in thinking about P's books.
>
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:26 PM, rich wrote:
>
>> Guns, like rockets KILL everywhere
>> in Pynchon's fiction. Killing is BAD.
>> ______
>> is it Weed who says you bring a gun, the state will bring a bigger  
>> gun?
>>
>> Crypto-fascism wins in Vineland embodied most in Frenesi, likeable
>> as she also is. Part of OBA's achievement.
>> ______
>> in my damaged brain, I sometimes mash together frenesi in a miniskirt
>> with the all-female miniskirted, baton wielding police force (I think
>> headed by the villainess Minerva) in Gotham City on the old Batman
>> show. the hottest crime fighters and for this male love of that
>> authority and uniform--i see where she's coming from I suppose ;)
>>
>> And the stoners get stoned in the old-fashioned sense by the
>> military-industrial complex which
>> is also the mob!
>> ___
>> and now mostly thanks to our stupid policy on marijuana, increasingly
>> controlled by the ultra-violence Mexican drug cartels. Recent NY  
>> Times
>> article this week discusses it without one word about
>> decriminalization which would put a major dent in cash flow for
>> traffickers--all that money were giving to the Mexican police and  
>> army
>> (hello, giving money to Mexican authorities to fight drugs --that's
>> pretty funny) to fight this "war"
>> I think this is one of sub-rosa themes among many in VL with the CAMP
>> folks, etc.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>> On 2/3/09, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Seconded in spades, no-trump.
>>>
>>> Frenesi is self-condemned. We have read how earlier. For her,  
>>> there is no
>>> excluded middle. She takes on the means of the
>>> fascists, not seeing a non-violent way..........therefore, she is  
>>> fascist
>>>
>>> .........................Guns, like rockets KILL everywhere
>>> in Pynchon's fiction. Killing is BAD.
>>>
>>> Crypto-fascism wins in Vineland embodied most in Frenesi, likeable
>>> as she also is. Part of OBA's achievement.
>>>
>>> And the stoners get stoned in the old-fashioned sense by the
>>> military-industrial complex which
>>> is also the mob!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
>>> To: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 3:49:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Bernadine Dohrn
>>>
>>> well, I'm probably not going to win a lot of adherents, but for  
>>> me...
>>>
>>> when Frenesi takes up the gun, she begins working for the Man.  In
>>> this case, explicitly: the notion of Brock's like training wheels.
>>> But the general instance is plain enough.  When there's a gun in  
>>> your
>>> camera bag, the doctrinaire elements (Rex) will use it to martyrize
>>> the attractive, charismatic elements (Weed) and the only winner  
>>> is the
>>> military-industrial complex.  Even if you're a ninja (DL) your  
>>> efforts
>>> will often enough hit the wrong target (Takeshi). Being that it's  
>>> all
>>> a celebration of markets anyway, the only force in society with the
>>> requisite cynicism to thrive in and enjoy it is the Mob (Wayvone).
>>> Luckily the stoners among us (Zoyd) aren't paying attention, and  
>>> they
>>> are able to retain a shred of decency to pass along to the next
>>> generation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>