VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso

[Paul Mackin]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Kohut" <markekohut at yahoo.com>
To: <kelber at mindspring.com>
Cc: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso


>
> I think this is a key judgment we have to make re P's vision in Vineland.
>
> It seems he DID think there was, in general, a thirst for "authority", 
> power-lovingness within hippiedom?
> I remember old fogeys writing analysis like that then......
>
> However, my old fogeyness today sides first with Laura's analysis.

You mean you disagree with Pynchon?   :-)

>
> BUT, I can't explain where 'all the flowers' went as the song 
> goes.........
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "kelber at mindspring.com" <kelber at mindspring.com>
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:43:00 PM
> Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso
>
> Did young people in the Nixon era really thirst for a daddy-fascist 
> figure? I don't buy it. Frenesi's obsession seems more of a sexual kink. 
> There's no suggestion that she (unlike Lake Traverse) had particular need 
> of a father figure, and it certainly doesn't spring from the 
> anti-authoritarian, never-trust-anyone-over-thirty ethos of those days.
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>
>>Reagan is good. Brock is the father figure in Frenesi's Electra Complex.
>>(feminine oedipus complex)
>>
>>The father-need that old what's his name apparently failed to supply. 
>>(name
>>momentarily excapes me)
>>
>>Brock is father to all the young people.
>>
>>Simplistist but it fits. There might actually be something to it in real
>>life.
>>
>>At least it makes for good interaction among Pynchon's cast of characters.
>>
>>Best chapter in the book.
>>
>>Who knows????
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Thomas Eckhardt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Animal attraction is or can be one element of what we consider to be
>>>> love. As is or can be attraction to power (outwardly signified by e.g.
>>>> the uniform, the gun), which is what Pynchon clearly is getting at in
>>>> "Vineland". Makes perfect sense to me.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> David Morris schrieb:
>>>>> I see discussion of VL like this as proof of the book's failure as
>>>>> viable fiction: desperate attempts to imbue the characters with
>>>>> understandable motives where none are apparent in the text.
>>>>>
>>>>> No need to respond. I'm voiced this criticism of VL before. Carry
>>>>> on, and I'll continue to try avoiding VLVL posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Richard Ryan
>>>>> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vond is both repugnant and charismatic. He *has* to be charismatic if
>>>>>> we're going to understand Frenesi's love for him (assuming "love" and
>>>>>> not mere animal attraction is the right way to describe her
>>>>>> feelings....)
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>