VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso

[Richard Ryan]

kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:  Pynchon clearly prefers Zoyd and DL, say, to Vond, while Frenesi's more weak than "evil."


**** Ryan sez:  I agree that Frenesi is portrayed as flawed as opposed to "evil" - I'm not sure I'd agree that Pynchon "prefers" Zoyd and DL (wildly flawed personalities themselves) to Vond, or what grounds we'd have for making that assessment....







--- On Tue, 3/10/09, kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> From: kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 1:04 PM
> Well, I was being a little
> ironic.  I'm not into absolutes, and I don't personally
> get into casting people as pure evil, nor do I indulge in
> hero-worship (particularly its current incarnation,
> Obamamania).  Still, I don't think Pynchon shows us
> Vond's frailties or flaws in the way he does with characters
> such as Vibe or Deuce Kindred.  while he doesn't go for
> categories like "good" and "evil," Pynchon clearly prefers
> Zoyd and DL, say, to Vond, while Frenesi's more weak than
> "evil."
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Mar 10, 2009 11:24 AM
> >To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> >Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso
> >
> >Vond as pure evil?  I duuno. I sympathsize with
> Laura's repugnance, but 
> >woudn't pure villainy be an unlikely Pynchonian
> construction? Even comic 
> >book monsters aren't pure evil anymore (just as action
> heroes are no longer 
> >pure good).  Good can result from Brock's presence
> on earth. Don't his 
> >insights into the student revolutionary psyche
> constitute important lessors 
> >to be learned? Not saying they WERE learned
> necessarity.
> >
> >Pure evil is so George W. Bush.  Obama is more up
> to date, able to envision 
> >good resulting from the actions of enemies.
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
> >To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:32 AM
> >Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso
> >
> >
> >> By casting Vond as a latter-day proponent of
> Lombroso, Pynchon's going all
> >> out in portraying Vond as across-the-board pure
> EVIL. Lombroso gets
> >> mentioned a few times in ATD: (p. 172, 252, 606),
> but the EVIL Vibe isn't
> >> tagged as a disciple. Vibe, the robber--baron
> capitalist, isn't
> >> necessarily racist:  he's more than happy to
> exploit and kill white
> >> people.  Capitalists will exploit anyone and
> sell to anyone - racism isn't
> >> crucial to profit margins.  Vond's a
> government-variety fascist.  His
> >> interests lie in power and control, and Lombroso's
> theories work well in
> >> the fascist police state of his dreams.
> >>
> >> Laura
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Richard Ryan <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> >>>Sent: Mar 9, 2009 12:26 AM
> >>>To: Pynchon-L <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >>>Subject: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Lombroso
> >>>
> >>>Cesare Lombroso, born Ezechia Marco Lombroso
> (November 6, 1835 – October
> >>>19, 1909) was a Jewish-Italian criminologist
> and founder of the Italian
> >>>School of Positivist Criminology. Lombroso
> rejected the established
> >>>Classical School, which held that crime was a
> characteristic trait of
> >>>human nature. Instead, using concepts drawn
> from physiognomy, early
> >>>eugenics, psychiatry and Social Darwinism,
> Lombroso's theory of
> >>>anthropological criminology essentially stated
> that criminality was
> >>>inherited, and that someone "born criminal"'
> could be identified by
> >>>physical defects, which confirmed a criminal as
> savage, or atavistic....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> 
> 
>