VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso

[Paul Mackin]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: VLVL (13) - Cesare Lombroso


> Did young people in the Nixon era really thirst for a daddy-fascist 
> figure?  I don't buy it.  Frenesi's obsession seems more of a sexual kink. 
> There's no suggestion that she (unlike Lake Traverse) had particular need 
> of a father figure, and it certainly doesn't spring from the 
> anti-authoritarian, never-trust-anyone-over-thirty ethos of those days.
>
> Laura

Yeah, certainly I wouldn't apply it everyone.

Don't want to sound pychoanalyic or anything but contracdictory desires are
not unheard of in the human species.  The anti-authoritarian,
never-trust-anyone-over-thirty goes right along with Brock's rather acute
perception about "needing to stay children forever." Also the Lombroso
theory about resistance to change shows the same general pattern, the
tendency to lack self-understanding. It's hard to do change. The more one
sees the need for it the harder it is to carry out. I don't know if this is
real or fictional Lombroso but it doesn't matter.

P.

>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>
>>Reagan is good. Brock is the father figure in Frenesi's Electra Complex.
>>(feminine oedipus complex)
>>
>>The father-need that old what's his name apparently failed to supply. 
>>(name
>>momentarily excapes me)
>>
>>Brock is father to all the young people.
>>
>>Simplistist but it fits. There might actually be something to it in real
>>life.
>>
>>At least it makes for good interaction among Pynchon's cast of characters.
>>
>>Best chapter in the book.
>>
>>Who knows????
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Thomas Eckhardt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Animal attraction is or can be one element of what we consider to  be
>>>> love. As is or can be attraction to power (outwardly signified  by e.g.
>>>> the uniform, the gun), which is what Pynchon clearly is  getting at in
>>>> "Vineland". Makes perfect sense to me.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> David Morris schrieb:
>>>>> I see discussion of VL like this as proof of the book's failure as
>>>>> viable fiction:  desperate attempts to imbue the characters with
>>>>> understandable motives where none are apparent in the text.
>>>>>
>>>>> No need to respond.  I'm voiced this criticism of VL before.  Carry
>>>>> on, and I'll continue to try avoiding VLVL posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Richard Ryan
>>>>> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vond is both repugnant and charismatic.  He *has* to be  charismatic 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> we're going to understand Frenesi's love for him  (assuming "love" 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> not mere animal attraction is the right way  to describe her
>>>>>> feelings....)
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>