(np) Croatia today

[Kevin Dunn]

I could admit that the first statement was not phrased well to imply  
that the Bosniaks were a result of Ottoman political & cultural  
dominance in the area. My apologies. Again I am not mitigating  
anyone's fault in any atrocity, certainly anyone involved must atone.  
But believing a whole ethnic group must be blamed is not correct  
either, is it? Isn't that how these atrocities proceed in the first  
place - by damning a whole group for the actions of a subset? Just my  
thoughts, & I never intend to imply that anyone must agree with me,  
that is, I am a big believer in the value of discourse. Plus I do not  
speak as an expert, just going on what I've learned & heard. No big  
"T" claims to truth here; just thought we all were putting in our  
specie.

Kevin

On Mar 22, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Carvill John <johncarvill at hotmail.com>  
wrote:

>
> Well, I am not trying to devalue your two cents.
>
> But the following two statements do not exactly mesh:
>
>
>> The Ottomans that stayed after the fall of their empire became
>> the Bosnian Muslims of today
>
>
>> the Bosnian Muslims of today are
>> the direct result of Ottoman conquest hundreds of years ago.
>
> The second statement is more accurate.
>
> Ask your Bosnian friends whether they feel their hands are 'clean'  
> enough to feel justified in condemming Serb war crimes?
>
>> there is more history to the conflict than was being
>> discussed.
>
> This is completely wrong. Every region, particularly in Europe, has  
> a long history. Doesn't in any way mitigate atrocities committed in  
> the present. Has no relevance. Only reason to mention it is to make  
> apologies.
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> From: kevindunn27 at gmail.com
>> To: johncarvill at hotmail.com
>> Subject: Re: (np) Croatia today
>> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:02:59 -0400
>>
>> Actually, I never intended to justify anyone's actions. I was simply
>> pointing out there is more history to the conflict than was being
>> discussed. As far as I understand, the Bosnian Muslims of today are
>> the direct result of Ottoman conquest hundreds of years ago. Local
>> prominent Slavs converted to Islam during occupation and participated
>> in the government (obstensively becoming Ottoman in culture and
>> politics) and their descendants are the Bosniaks of today. There were
>> Ottomans who intermarried and stayed behind after the territory fell
>> under Austro-Hungarian rule, in addition. If this all is untrue  
>> (which
>> would mean my class on the history and literature of the area, as  
>> well
>> as my Bosnian and Montenegren friends (who are Muslim), were wrong),
>> then where did the Bosnian Muslims come from?
>>
>> My mistake for putting in my two cents. Shoulda left it alone...
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Carvill John
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's your opinion, but I'll cite Ivo Andric's "Bridge on the  
>>>> Drina"
>>>> as evidence. While it is fiction, it does detail the history of the
>>>> region correctly and informs the history of the recent conflict in
>>>> the
>>>> Balkans.
>>>
>>>
>>> It isn't my 'opinion'. Your statement:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The Ottomans that stayed after the fall of their empire became
>>>>> the Bosnian Muslims of today
>>>
>>> ..is not actually true. BUt even if it were, the next bit is far
>>> worse:
>>>
>>>>> so it seems no one's ancestry has clean hands.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you apply that logic, whose hands are clean? Ottoman empore?
>>> Crusading Christians? Spanish Inquisitionists? WHo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Does that mean that Sept 11th was ok, since 'Christians' have been
>>> responsible for all manner of ill deeds? Just doesn;t stack up. You
>>> can't use history from hundreds of years ago to justify modern day
>>> atrocities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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