AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc

[Paul Mackin]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Kohut" <markekohut at yahoo.com>
To: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc


>
> Yes, I think the whole ending of AtD, as we have all discussed
> and some agree, given the time in History and the way TRP ends it
> is (at least) about hisotircal progress---or lack of same.

The chums make progress but it is mythical/fanciful.

The Traverses don't move the revolution along but keep the hope alive. They 
are one of the (mostly) happy families that are all alike.

No need to unify or totalize the various elements

>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 10:34:41 AM
> Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
> To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:06 AM
> Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc
>
>
>> Thanks, JT. This is a really thought-provoking analysis of the Chums of
>> Chance and their development through the novel. One has to wonder if
>> there are any real-life parallels (or if TRP at least thinks there are) 
>> to
>> the stage the Chums attain by the end of ATD.
>>
>> Laura
>
> Could we be dealing here with what is so widely put down as the Western 
> myth
> of progress (economic, social and moral)?
>
> One can always cite examples of things getting better and better but also 
> of
> things getting worse and worse.
>
> The radical critique would be that such gradualism doesn't move humanity
> anywhere.
>
> I don't know what TRP (the real Pynchon) really thinks but he has made 
> those
> Luddite noises from time to time.
>
> P
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>
>>>
>>>>> Ian L writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Maybe Wilber is near the heart of the matter when he says that
>>>>> people
>>>>> all start out at the same developmental stage and progress along
>>>>> their
>>>>> particular developmental path until they get off and say "that's
>>>>> enough. I'll just stay at this stage." Most commonly that stage is
>>>>> the stage of ethnocentric values in which "my group" is the right one
>>>>> and everyone else is wrong."
>>>>>
>>>>> Q: Could this summarize, in a tangential way, where the Chums are
>>>>> at the end of AtD?
>>>>> Western Civ-centric historically?
>>>
>>>I see this "my group" is the right one
>>>and everyone else is wrong." as where the chums start out, not where
>>>they end up. Their journey has paralleled western civ in some ways
>>>but they start out authority-male centric, trusting that they are
>>>working for the good guys, accepting the pay( economic) arrangements
>>>without questions, and full of the cliched presumptions of
>>>Christanity /western progess through gee whiz science and being on
>>>the right side. By the end of the story they have seen the dark
>>>soul of the future, most of their presumptions have been challenged
>>>and overturned the power structure has changed radically and they
>>>have given a very equal status to the feminine, the eastern, the
>>>collective, the democratic. The style is still boys adventure
>>>story but they are no longer in a "my group is right" frame of
>>>mind. The problem is that their positive send-off takes place in
>>>the most fictional of the 3 worlds Pynchon is juggling in this
>>>book: history ( a good portion of the characters, setting,
>>>background and events)- a fictional interpretation of history( the
>>>journey of the Traverse clan) - and imaginary mythos ( the
>>>adventures of the chums of chance) . But I think Pynchon finds the
>>>changes in the chums to be evident in the real world too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>