AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc

[Paul Mackin]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net>
To: "Paul Mackin" <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc


> >
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I think the whole ending of AtD, as we have all discussed
>>> and some agree, given the time in History and the way TRP ends it
>>> is (at least) about hisotircal progress---or lack of same.
>>
>> The chums make progress but it is mythical/fanciful.
>>
>> The Traverses don't move the revolution along but keep the hope  alive.
>> They are one of the (mostly) happy families that are all alike.
>>
>> No need to unify or totalize the various elements
>>
> I am not seeing so much historical  progress as the progress of a
> dissident and more humane worldview. This offers only a glimmer of  hope
> against a terrifying historical momentum in which war and the  cultural
> colonialism that accompanies it continues as the dominant  paradigm. In a
> book by a single author it seems to me as reasonable  to assume a totality
> or unity of the various elements as not.  I  obviously am inclined to do
> so.

But what if the parts don't fit together in a very satisfying way.

In the realm of boys' adventure stories the chums fly toward grace which
however you want exactly to define the word means  a truly better world.

However the militant American old left as exemplified by the Traverses
soldiers on, with only its anger (an ineffect tool) to direct it, without 
much prospect of
achieving its goals.

We don't want to conclude do we that the dream is somehow an end it itself?



  If Tom Pynchon would answer some of these questions would it settle  the
> disputes? Kinda doubt it. Probably step on one or 2 of every P  head's
> toes though.

Maybe he can't answer them.

P.


>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 10:34:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
>>> To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks, JT. This is a really thought-provoking analysis of the  Chums
>>>> of
>>>> Chance and their development through the novel. One has to wonder if
>>>> there are any real-life parallels (or if TRP at least thinks  there
>>>> are) to
>>>> the stage the Chums attain by the end of ATD.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>
>>> Could we be dealing here with what is so widely put down as the  Western
>>> myth
>>> of progress (economic, social and moral)?
>>>
>>> One can always cite examples of things getting better and better  but
>>> also of
>>> things getting worse and worse.
>>>
>>> The radical critique would be that such gradualism doesn't move
>>> humanity
>>> anywhere.
>>>
>>> I don't know what TRP (the real Pynchon) really thinks but he has  made
>>> those
>>> Luddite noises from time to time.
>>>
>>> P
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ian L writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Maybe Wilber is near the heart of the matter when he says that
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> all start out at the same developmental stage and progress along
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> particular developmental path until they get off and say "that's
>>>>>>> enough. I'll just stay at this stage." Most commonly that  stage is
>>>>>>> the stage of ethnocentric values in which "my group" is the  right
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> and everyone else is wrong."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Q: Could this summarize, in a tangential way, where the Chums are
>>>>>>> at the end of AtD?
>>>>>>> Western Civ-centric historically?
>>>>>
>>>>> I see this "my group" is the right one
>>>>> and everyone else is wrong." as where the chums start out, not  where
>>>>> they end up. Their journey has paralleled western civ in some ways
>>>>> but they start out authority-male centric, trusting that they are
>>>>> working for the good guys, accepting the pay( economic)  arrangements
>>>>> without questions, and full of the cliched presumptions of
>>>>> Christanity /western progess through gee whiz science and being on
>>>>> the right side. By the end of the story they have seen the dark
>>>>> soul of the future, most of their presumptions have been challenged
>>>>> and overturned the power structure has changed radically and they
>>>>> have given a very equal status to the feminine, the eastern, the
>>>>> collective, the democratic. The style is still boys adventure
>>>>> story but they are no longer in a "my group is right" frame of
>>>>> mind. The problem is that their positive send-off takes place in
>>>>> the most fictional of the 3 worlds Pynchon is juggling in this
>>>>> book: history ( a good portion of the characters, setting,
>>>>> background and events)- a fictional interpretation of history( the
>>>>> journey of the Traverse clan) - and imaginary mythos ( the
>>>>> adventures of the chums of chance) . But I think Pynchon finds the
>>>>> changes in the chums to be evident in the real world too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>