V-2nd: Grasping and not...

[Emma Wrigley]

I think Benny is more empathic than that and not necessarily that his
decisions/view are informed by his hardon. I just think that he is
somewhat circumspect about what he allows himself to contemplate in
others and their view of him and indeed afraid of what he may find when
he does, which I think is one of the points that Mark was making in the
first place. My perception (on this reading atleast) is of an immature
masculinity, a fear of becoming a more rounded individual in relation to
others and his place in society. He comes across as a boy rather than a
man - to put it crudely. As to the original question of his fear of
commitment I think that is understandable in light of this and actually
strengthens him as a literary character.
I agree that many (if not most maybe? I am sure Richard Dawkins has
something to say on exactly this. I shall look it up, if someone else
doesn't beat me to it) don't actually empathize on any deep level. I
suppose that it is this which makes us capable of the things we do, and
yet, historically is it not this which marks us as the higher animals we
are? Our ability to empathize. Nature is not cruel, it is just
indifferent. Actually I suppose this opens another can of worms. Are we
actually, on any meaningful level, evolving through our ability to
empathize. Are we losing it? Are we therefore regressing? Are Profane et
al. living at a stage where they have reached the apex of the 'human
condition' (whatever that may be). Is it all downhill from then on? Who
are the 'empaths' and who are 'indifferents'? Where does Benny come on
the scale, is he in the centre?



<-----Original Message-----> 
>From: Ian Livingston [igrlivingston at gmail.com]
>Sent: 22/6/2010 5:47:45 PM
>To: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com
>Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
>Subject: Re: V-2nd: Grasping and not...
>
>Norming empathy sort of scares me.
>
>That said, empathy is perhaps a bit strong for what I was getting at.
>My point has more to do with Stencil's later adventures in imaginative
>self-extension than with actually experiencing another's subjectivity.
>I ain't Deanna Troy. Not even Marina Sirkis. And I do not really think
>many humans actually empathize at that fantastic level. But to extend
>one's notion of reality to include the perspectives of others as
>referents seems valid, at least at the imaginative level. For
>instance, we try sometimes (some of us) to imagine seeing the world
>from P's point of view. I am not smart enough to actually grok the
>dude, but I can sort of allow myself to think, "Well, if I had read
>all this shit and understood a great deal of it, lived a life that
>took me to the places Pynchon went, and hung out with his peers, what
>would I mean when I wrote this part?" It doesn't mean I'd get it any
>better--like Stencil, I'd just be trying to imagine it in order to
>broaden my way of looking at the material. Benny seems incapable of
>any such conscious awareness of anyone else's point of view. He seems
>to be informed, as you note, by his hardon, not by consideration of
>what someone else might think of it.
>
>On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michael Bailey
> wrote:
>> , Ian Livingston wrote:
>>> Good point, Emma. The capacity to imaginatively enter another
person's
>>> perspective is not available to someone at a self-centric stage of
>>> development. One of the things that marks Benny is his experience of
>>> the world as a bifurcated phenomenon composed of his subjective
>>> experience and the otherness of everything else. That alienation is
>>> irremediable until the subject discovers that others actually
>>> experience the world from very different perspectives every bit as
>>> real as one's own. I'm trying to think if there is any point in the
>>> novel where Benny actually moves into that capacity. Will have to
>>> watch as we go. Or be corrected by someone who sees something I
>>> don't....
>>>
>>
>>
>> not trying to correct, but add to the discussion a bit,
>> wondering what is a "normative" quantity for empathy?
>>
>> it's a multidimensional quandary:
>>
>> a) perception of one's own feelings fluctuates in intensity, so to
feel the 
>pain
>> (or pleasure - a lot of times I forget to think of that possibility,
>> when considering
>> the ramifications of empathy) - so to feel someone else's experience
>> as if it were your own,
>> might not be all that intense, or it might be overwhelming...
>>
>> b) if you're in a shared situation, the other person's feelings might
>> overlap your own anyway
>> - one of the things about V. that I think few would deny, is there's
a
>> shared malaise abroad that
>> Benny and the WSC respond to in different ways, but perhaps feel or
>> experience in a similar way
>> - but the mere sharing of experience falls short of a positive
sharing
>> of selfhood that would qualify for the praiseworthy connotations of
>> "empathy"
>>
>> c) in fact, there's a reading that appeals to me, where Stencil's
>> seeking in history the roots of that malaise, and/or an understanding
>> of V. as an antidote to it (that is, the understanding of V. would be
>> the anodyne), somehwat as a psychiatric patient seeks in analysis to
>> understand the forces shaping his or her condition...
>> - and what seems to be a major theme is the way that the consequences
>> of socially established violence, personified in Pig Bodine wrapping
>> his hairy arm around Benny (since he includes both the disgusting
>> parts and the saving graces), pervade the landscape, and limit - but
>> do not preclude - the possibilities for love, kindness, meaningful
>> work...
>>
>> I've kind of veered off into rambling, but the sort of point I would
>> make, were I capable of making a point, would be that merely being
>> able to feature, understand, grok, dig, another's gestalt isn't the
>> full accomplishment of empathy, but also to be able to add some kind
>> of oomph that shows you care...
>>
>> and to do that you have to be coming from the place where BP's hardon
>> comes from...(imho)
>>
>> the malaise, the generative force that redeems - both are present in
V.
>> My friend in high school that I loaned it to said it was the best
book
>> he ever read.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Yippy dippy dippy,
>> Flippy zippy zippy,
>> Smippy gdippy gdippy, too!
>> - Thomas Pynchon ("'Zo Meatman's Gone AWOL")
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>"liber enim librum aperit."
>.
> 
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