V-2nd: Grasping and not...

[Ian Livingston]

Excellent point, Emma. I think you hit the hot spot in noting that
Benny is a big boy, so to speak. A cadre of contemporary thinkers
going back at least to Carol Gilligan, perhaps even to James Mark
Baldwin and his understudy, Jean Piaget, describe psychological
development as a progress in stages. The sort of self-centric
development Benny embodies is relatively early the progress of
development. Others, too, suggest that development along stages can be
traced in terms of lines of development, such that a person like Mike
Tyson might have fantastic development along the kinesthetic line, he
might have the social skills of a third grader. So, I suggest, with
Benny. He is a schlemiehl, not an idiot. He seems able to take care of
people in way that is downright touching at times, but he seems to
operate without a conscious understanding of why he does the things he
does and it seems like he does them, ultimately, for his own
gratification. His sexual relations do not seem to have the best
possible outcome for his partners in mind, he has to be persuaded to
do things for others' sakes. So I suggest he is not really capable of
including others' perspectives yet. Another thing about stages: they
do not have hard divisions. A subject may be more or less at a given
stage, with moments of greater or lesser development, but a "center of
gravity" that is more rather than less, for instance, self-centric. So
Benny is not mean or disregardful, just limited in his ability. When
we get there, I think it is appropriate to look at Stencil using the
same sort of criteria. He has his own "issues."

All that said, none of this would likely have been in P's toolbox at
the time he wrote V. Only Baldwin and Piaget were generally available
on these notions at that time. It's sort of a post-mortem on an
immortal character, in my mind, but it is interesting to think about.
Baldwin is obscure and important enough to have crossed his radar
somewhere along way, though, and Gilligan's studies during the 60s
became downright mainstream over time.

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Emma Wrigley <ecwrigley at excite.co.uk> wrote:
> I think Benny is more empathic than that and not necessarily that his
> decisions/view are informed by his hardon. I just think that he is somewhat
> circumspect about what he allows himself to contemplate in others and their
> view of him and indeed afraid of what he may find when he does, which I
> think is one of the points that Mark was making in the first place. My
> perception (on this reading atleast) is of an immature masculinity, a fear
> of becoming a more rounded individual in relation to others and his place in
> society. He comes across as a boy rather than a man - to put it crudely. As
> to the original question of his fear of commitment I think that is
> understandable in light of this and actually strengthens him as a literary
> character.
> I agree that many (if not most maybe? I am sure Richard Dawkins has
> something to say on exactly this. I shall look it up, if someone else
> doesn't beat me to it) don't actually empathize on any deep level. I suppose
> that it is this which makes us capable of the things we do, and yet,
> historically is it not this which marks us as the higher animals we are? Our
> ability to empathize. Nature is not cruel, it is just indifferent. Actually
> I suppose this opens another can of worms. Are we actually, on any
> meaningful level, evolving through our ability to empathize. Are we losing
> it? Are we therefore regressing? Are Profane et al. living at a stage where
> they have reached the apex of the 'human condition' (whatever that may be).
> Is it all downhill from then on? Who are the 'empaths' and who are
> 'indifferents'? Where does Benny come on the scale, is he in the centre?
>
>
>
> <-----Original Message----->
>>From: Ian Livingston [igrlivingston at gmail.com]
>>Sent: 22/6/2010 5:47:45 PM
>>To: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com
>>Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>Subject: Re: V-2nd: Grasping and not...
>>
>>Norming empathy sort of scares me.
>>
>>That said, empathy is perhaps a bit strong for what I was getting at.
>>My point has more to do with Stencil's later adventures in imaginative
>>self-extension than with actually experiencing another's subjectivity.
>>I ain't Deanna Troy. Not even Marina Sirkis. And I do not really think
>>many humans actually empathize at that fantastic level. But to extend
>>one's notion of reality to include the perspectives of others as
>>referents seems valid, at least at the imaginative level. For
>>instance, we try sometimes (some of us) to imagine seeing the world
>>from P's point of view. I am not smart enough to actually grok the
>>dude, but I can sort of allow myself to think, "Well, if I had read
>>all this shit and understood a great deal of it, lived a life that
>>took me to the places Pynchon went, and hung out with his peers, what
>>would I mean when I wrote this part?" It doesn't mean I'd get it any
>>better--like Stencil, I'd just be trying to imagine it in order to
>>broaden my way of looking at the material. Benny seems incapable of
>>any such conscious awareness of anyone else's point of view. He seems
>>to be informed, as you note, by his hardon, not by consideration of
>>what someone else might think of it.
>>
>>On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michael Bailey
>> wrote:
>>> , Ian Livingston wrote:
>>>> Good point, Emma. The capacity to imaginatively enter another person's
>>>> perspective is not available to someone at a self-centric stage of
>>>> development. One of the things that marks Benny is his experience of
>>>> the world as a bifurcated phenomenon composed of his subjective
>>>> experience and the otherness of everything else. That alienation is
>>>> irremediable until the subject discovers that others actually
>>>> experience the world from very different perspectives every bit as
>>>> real as one's own. I'm trying to think if there is any point in the
>>>> novel where Benny actually moves into that capacity. Will have to
>>>> watch as we go. Or be corrected by someone who sees something I
>>>> don't....
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> not trying to correct, but add to the discussion a bit,
>>> wondering what is a "normative" quantity for empathy?
>>>
>>> it's a multidimensional quandary:
>>>
>>> a) perception of one's own feelings fluctuates in intensity, so to feel
>>> the
>>pain
>>> (or pleasure - a lot of times I forget to think of that possibility,
>>> when considering
>>> the ramifications of empathy) - so to feel someone else's experience
>>> as if it were your own,
>>> might not be all that intense, or it might be overwhelming...
>>>
>>> b) if you're in a shared situation, the other person's feelings might
>>> overlap your own anyway
>>> - one of the things about V. that I think few would deny, is there's a
>>> shared malaise abroad that
>>> Benny and the WSC respond to in different ways, but perhaps feel or
>>> experience in a similar way
>>> - but the mere sharing of experience falls short of a positive sharing
>>> of selfhood that would qualify for the praiseworthy connotations of
>>> "empathy"
>>>
>>> c) in fact, there's a reading that appeals to me, where Stencil's
>>> seeking in history the roots of that malaise, and/or an understanding
>>> of V. as an antidote to it (that is, the understanding of V. would be
>>> the anodyne), somehwat as a psychiatric patient seeks in analysis to
>>> understand the forces shaping his or her condition...
>>> - and what seems to be a major theme is the way that the consequences
>>> of socially established violence, personified in Pig Bodine wrapping
>>> his hairy arm around Benny (since he includes both the disgusting
>>> parts and the saving graces), pervade the landscape, and limit - but
>>> do not preclude - the possibilities for love, kindness, meaningful
>>> work...
>>>
>>> I've kind of veered off into rambling, but the sort of point I would
>>> make, were I capable of making a point, would be that merely being
>>> able to feature, understand, grok, dig, another's gestalt isn't the
>>> full accomplishment of empathy, but also to be able to add some kind
>>> of oomph that shows you care...
>>>
>>> and to do that you have to be coming from the place where BP's hardon
>>> comes from...(imho)
>>>
>>> the malaise, the generative force that redeems - both are present in V.
>>> My friend in high school that I loaned it to said it was the best book
>>> he ever read.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Yippy dippy dippy,
>>> Flippy zippy zippy,
>>> Smippy gdippy gdippy, too!
>>> - Thomas Pynchon ("'Zo Meatman's Gone AWOL")
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"liber enim librum aperit."
>>.
>>



-- 
"liber enim librum aperit."