The Traverse Trail - Too many?

[Joseph Tracy]

"howthe sins of the father ripple and work out in history, in America."

 I think also how the heroism and literal sacrifices of those who resist the empire pass on in various ways. 

I think the four  children are also about the  cross, the crossroads and the four directions. Too me, they are identifiable Traverses, but clearly differentiated.

On Sep 30, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:

> Can't remember this Katie Elder coming up before....thanks.
> 
> I repeat myself, I'm sure, when I proclaim loudly that Webb's ideals cum moral failings are carried through all the sons as different threads of how
> the sins of the father ripple and work out in history, in America. 
> 
> Whether the characters are "round" enough to be memorable is one discussion question, imho. Reading it again helps, I suggest.
> 
> That their plotline threads embody quite different paths of moral inheritance--and karmic adjustment--we all remember on one reading.
> 
> Pynchon wanted all four for good reasons, I say.
> 
> 
> From: Matthew Cissell <macissell at yahoo.es>
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 1:56:19 PM
> Subject: The Traverse Trail - Too many?
> 
> Hello P-people,
>    
>     I'm not following the V. reading and I only occasionally dip into the comments, but this bit caught my eye since it has to do with the number of characters in AD and specifically the Traverse family & its narrative(s). Bear with me.
>     "If a lion could speak, we couldn't understand him" (Wittgenstein PI pt II sec. xi). Let us extend this line of thought. If someone from an isolated culture (e.g., Sentinelese) could be taught English they would probably understand a hunting story, but would they understand a western as an example of a narrative genre in books and films? Likely not. However, many people in developed and developing countries do. They have the cultural competence that allows them to recognize icons and symbols that define the genre.
>     We (being the specifically cultured readers in this conversation) read about Lew Basnight and we start to think of Marlowe and other detective types (but probably not Miss Marple). What then of the Traverse brothers? Do they correspond to a generic and indefinite type?
>     I propose that just as Lew Basnight brings Marlowe to mind,  the Traverse narrative bears some resemblance to the classic western film "The Sons of Katie Elder". The elements of revenge (of Webb Traverse) and maintaining the family name and it's prestige (by continuing Webb's work and also Kit's social rise) parallel the movie and the book it was based on. However, incorporating this into the novel necessitates multiple siblings: the story wouldn't be the same with one or two brothers.
>     Whether "it works" better than V. or not is the decision of each reader. Lets remember that Joyce's brother Stanislaus (and a number of others) thought Ulysses was much better than Finnegan's Wake.
> 
>  
> 
> From: Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de>
> To: kelber at mindspring.com
> Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 12:38:21 PM
> Subject: Re: V-2nd - Chap 8 / I have really never read this book this closely before
> 
> >  wouldn't two or one Traverse brother have worked just as well?
> 
> Perhaps even better.
> 
> To me the brothers appear like the nephews of Donald Duck:
> 
> I never can tell them apart!
> 
> Kai
> 
> 
> On 29.09.2010 16:58, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
> > No, I think it was less successful in ATD.  V. gives us Stencil and Profane to follow, to sympathize with, to rest on (as a crutch?  Maybe, but fiction's supposed to make us care, isn't it?).  I feel Profane's apathy in the face of forces he's afraid of; I feel Stencil's urgency to solve a riddle that's a metaphor for all that ails the 20th century.
> >
> > The vast list of poorly-realized, often redundant characters (wouldn't two or one Traverse brother have worked just as well?)in ATD gives us no such crutch, no empathy, no viewpoint with which to view the vast historical currents portrayed in the book.  P might have been attempting to illustrate quantum theory (his characters are only discreet parcels of energy that are likely to be present at a given place and time), leaving us pretty much on our own.  The book is part poetry, part parody and part documentary, with fictional narrative absent.  So no, V. does it better: it makes me care.
> >
> > Laura
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >    
> >> From: Robin Landseadel<robinlandseadel at comcast.net>
> >>      
> >    
> >> On Sep 29, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Michael Bailey wrote:
> >>
> >>      
> >>> But doesn't the human interest part of the story show that, like
> >>> Tolstoy said, the infinitesimal movements of individuals are actually
> >>> the components of these historical currents and there really is
> >>> something else going on that's worth paying attention to and deriving
> >>> a counter-moral?
> >>>        
> >> And isn't that sooooooooooo much more successfully realized in
> >> "Against the Day," using more or less the same basic mis-en-scene as
> >> the Stencilization inside 'V."?
> >>
> >>      
> >
> >
> >    
> 
> 
> 
> 

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