a little more McLuhan (& maybe Pynchon)

[David Morris]

I think animals are better language prospects than AI. Just add some DNA.

On Tuesday, August 30, 2011, alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com>
wrote:
> In the same book by Pinker, _The Language Instinct_, in Chapter 7,
> "Talking Heads", he tosses the robots in the trash and kicks the AI
> enthusiasts to the curb. Robots can't do the smple tasks that infant
> humans are born doing. BTW, computers can not play chess. He also
> makes fun of the idea of animal languages. Animal and computer
> languages like Pluto, not planets.
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 5:48 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
wrote:
>> On 8/30/2011 5:05 PM, cfabel wrote:
>>
>> I’m not sure if this helps or just reveals my own misunderstanding of
what’s
>> going on here, but I believe there is quite a passel of research
suggesting
>> strongly that mental operations exist prior to the onset of language,
>> conversation by gesture, and social interaction. So it seems not
>> unreasonable to hypothesize, at least, that some of us “think” without
>> words. But, language is not just significant symbols but syntax and
syntax
>> seems to be part of our bio-inheritance, part of our pre-social
mind-brain
>> (Chomsky’s “language faculty?”). So, syntax, probably, is neither learned
>> nor constructed socially and this suggests a reversal of the model of
>> symbolic interaction, mind, language, and the self. Bio-inheritance
first,
>> symbolic interaction follows, probably?
>>
>>
>>
>> This sounds very relevant to Mark's question. The symbol consciousness
seems
>> to be kind of an overlay placed upon the real show going on in the neural
>> networks.    AI theorists model both neural networks and symbol
manipulation
>> in order to provide a better understanding for the design of robots.
>>
>> Also there are the neuroscience findings (brain imaging) that support the
>> idea that our nervous systems make decisions for us before we are even
aware
>> of them.  Throws into doubt so called "free will."
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>> C. F. Abel
>>
>> Chair
>>
>> Department of Government
>>
>> Stephen F. Austin State University
>>
>> Nacogdoches, Texas 75962
>>
>> (936) 468-3903 <tel:%28936%29%20468-3903>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On
Behalf
>> Of Mark Kohut
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 3:27 PM
>> To: David Morris
>> Cc: alice wellintown; David Payne; Paul Mackin; pynchon -l
>> Subject: Re: a little more McLuhan (& maybe Pynchon)
>>
>>
>>
>> This has been a fascinating, because more puzzling than usual, thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not know what I may be "mistaking" my word-thinking for, since I am
>> just offering it as a phenomenon.
>>
>> I do not know if it comes from some learned or innate 'grammar".........
>>
>> Yes, I KNOW it slows me down --in reading anyway. (Although I have
various
>> speeds--as we all do?)
>>
>> How word-thinking is connected to my auditory sense, I do not know
either,
>> except that, as I wrote, it happens
>>
>> when I listen to TV, say, so that sense is involved. Happens (mostly)
when I
>> read in quiet. happens when I write.
>>
>> Sometimes when I 'think", I think.
>>
>>
>>
>> And, I am sure I 'think', experience much mentally, in other ways than in
>> words as well. Not to even mention the Unconscious.
>>
>>
>>
>> I just wondered who else is like me in this regard. What they think it
might
>> mean for our orientation in the world.
>>
>> And, for whom this may NOT be true.............and what that might mean
for
>> them...
>>
>>
>>
>> And how societies might handle the dirfferences.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> To: alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com>
>> Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: a little more McLuhan (& maybe Pynchon)
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:34 AM, alice wellintown
>> <alicewellintown at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  I think McLuhan would say that, even on a gray scale, black & white are
>>> qualitatively different......like literate vs. pre-literate even on a
gray
>>> scale
>>>
>>> He w
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