NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a nation in crisis

[Ian Livingston]

Oh, and by the way, at the risk of slobbering over the good, You rock,
Laura. My reasons for visiting the holding cell were not so valid, but
I know both the heebie jeebies and the comfort of being the one to
care. Thanks again for your service. I hope I get to join in as more
than a chorus member soon.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, right. I quite agree with you and I am being a little facetious.
> Nationalist structures cannot co-abide with internationalist
> standards. If you are going to transcend nationalism, you have to go
> beyond it altogether. You can still have Hoosiers and Buckeyes and all
> that, but you can't have Massachusetts versus Virginia, or Saxons
> versus Macedonians. The Greeks did not establish modern Europe, it is
> the product of a complex evolution that began even before Sumeria,
> Egypt, and all that lot, and which will continue in some form or
> another as long as men are allowed to fight. And Greece has not undone
> the Euro, it is failing by the tension of its own ironies. When the
> time comes, as likely under some breed of Imperial dominance as
> anything else, I suppose, Europe, as so the other continents, will
> have to redefine herself. If you want an international currency, you
> need a unified government. If you want a unified government, you have
> either to appease the majority of the people, or subject them all. For
> now, nations are here. But for how long, and what will become of them?
> That's moot.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:55 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Claro!
>> But my point was about PIGS of Yurp analyzed as poor US states. NOT about
>> Anti progressive US tax history.  It's about US vs Yurp nationalism(s). The
>> Euro may have been a more progressive concept than individual nationalisms
>> could uphold.
>>
>> Euro structure not allowing quick monetary expansion (print more money) is
>> the real villian. But ECB is Old Gold obsessed, a sort of monetary BSM
>> fetish, so musty 29's.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2011, Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Way to go, Laura!   I'm proud to know you.   :-)
>>>
>>> Bekah
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 17, 2011, at 1:17 PM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree, Joseph, that the world is in for a desolate few hundred years,
>>>> as nation states fall, and Global Corporate Giants duke it out over control
>>>> of diminishing resources (like oil and clean water).  There will be the
>>>> Haves (people living comfortably within Global Corporate spheres of
>>>> influence)and the Have-nots (people currently living in the poorer areas of
>>>> Europe and Asia, most of central Africa, the rust belt and Plains areas of
>>>> the US) who are at the mercy of war lords and drug lords and only
>>>> occasionally some sort of makeshift democratic and/or anarchistic state).
>>>>
>>>> OK, admittedly this is just my own half-baked theory, but it seems
>>>> consistent with the trend.  I just spent 31 hours in police custody after
>>>> getting arrested for trespassing at an Occupy Wall Street event, and it did
>>>> make me realize that certain aspects of the nation-state, such as
>>>> military/prison/surveillance are of use to the corporate powers-that-be and
>>>> could be retained long after other government functions have withered away.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2011 3:56 PM
>>>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a
>>>>> nation in crisis
>>>>>
>>>>> I picked up on this thread because I was enjoying the many  sharp
>>>>> thoughts.  I think we both see the conundrum here where if the Euro zone
>>>>> project trumps democratic process and imposes leadership on debtor
>>>>> countries, it is also democracy at stake. Should nations really be privately
>>>>> owned and managed for international corporate profit? And  behind the Euro
>>>>> vail it looks to many like the big banks who are pressuring the Euro-union
>>>>> taxpayers who have been frugal and realistic to insure the bad debt of banks
>>>>> and governments which have not..  As far as the US rich states and poor, I
>>>>> don't think that argument is comparable on several levels, and question the
>>>>> core premise.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the rest of the world being hurt, I just think the hurt of the
>>>>> world is a done deal: oceans fished out, growing contamination of water,
>>>>>  infrastructure and food supply dependence on fossil fuels, massive climate
>>>>> change, and large scale international financial fraud, growing wealth
>>>>> divide, 7 billion and exponentially growing . The opportunities for
>>>>> corporate profits are diminished and bloody. And what has been built with
>>>>> all that money is a giant machine for burning fossil fuel.   The dream of
>>>>> propping up the current system without deep structural changes is a delusion
>>>>> that is pointing toward a fork in the road. And as  a famous Yogi said,
>>>>> "When you see a fork in the road, take it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:44 AM, David Morris wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thing is there is no option of "fixing" this mess. A large
>>>>>>>> transition is overdue and inevitable..Why be afraid of letting the big banks
>>>>>>>> die? The sooner people face the future without dragon lairs in their dreams
>>>>>>>> the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, it's the Euro that's at stake here more than some big banks.
>>>>>> And if Europe's economy tail-dives, the rest of the world will also be
>>>>>> hurt.  The problem in Yurp is political at its base:  Yurp wanted a
>>>>>> common currenct,butisn't willing to act for a common good.  In the US
>>>>>> rich states routine subsidize poor states through Federal taxes, and
>>>>>> no one feels abused.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>



-- 
"Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant