NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a nation in crisis

[Ian Livingston]

Yes, right. I quite agree with you and I am being a little facetious.
Nationalist structures cannot co-abide with internationalist
standards. If you are going to transcend nationalism, you have to go
beyond it altogether. You can still have Hoosiers and Buckeyes and all
that, but you can't have Massachusetts versus Virginia, or Saxons
versus Macedonians. The Greeks did not establish modern Europe, it is
the product of a complex evolution that began even before Sumeria,
Egypt, and all that lot, and which will continue in some form or
another as long as men are allowed to fight. And Greece has not undone
the Euro, it is failing by the tension of its own ironies. When the
time comes, as likely under some breed of Imperial dominance as
anything else, I suppose, Europe, as so the other continents, will
have to redefine herself. If you want an international currency, you
need a unified government. If you want a unified government, you have
either to appease the majority of the people, or subject them all. For
now, nations are here. But for how long, and what will become of them?
That's moot.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:55 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Claro!
> But my point was about PIGS of Yurp analyzed as poor US states. NOT about
> Anti progressive US tax history.  It's about US vs Yurp nationalism(s). The
> Euro may have been a more progressive concept than individual nationalisms
> could uphold.
>
> Euro structure not allowing quick monetary expansion (print more money) is
> the real villian. But ECB is Old Gold obsessed, a sort of monetary BSM
> fetish, so musty 29's.
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2011, Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Way to go, Laura!   I'm proud to know you.   :-)
>>
>> Bekah
>>
>>
>> On Nov 17, 2011, at 1:17 PM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>
>>> I agree, Joseph, that the world is in for a desolate few hundred years,
>>> as nation states fall, and Global Corporate Giants duke it out over control
>>> of diminishing resources (like oil and clean water).  There will be the
>>> Haves (people living comfortably within Global Corporate spheres of
>>> influence)and the Have-nots (people currently living in the poorer areas of
>>> Europe and Asia, most of central Africa, the rust belt and Plains areas of
>>> the US) who are at the mercy of war lords and drug lords and only
>>> occasionally some sort of makeshift democratic and/or anarchistic state).
>>>
>>> OK, admittedly this is just my own half-baked theory, but it seems
>>> consistent with the trend.  I just spent 31 hours in police custody after
>>> getting arrested for trespassing at an Occupy Wall Street event, and it did
>>> make me realize that certain aspects of the nation-state, such as
>>> military/prison/surveillance are of use to the corporate powers-that-be and
>>> could be retained long after other government functions have withered away.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2011 3:56 PM
>>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>> Subject: Re: NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a
>>>> nation in crisis
>>>>
>>>> I picked up on this thread because I was enjoying the many  sharp
>>>> thoughts.  I think we both see the conundrum here where if the Euro zone
>>>> project trumps democratic process and imposes leadership on debtor
>>>> countries, it is also democracy at stake. Should nations really be privately
>>>> owned and managed for international corporate profit? And  behind the Euro
>>>> vail it looks to many like the big banks who are pressuring the Euro-union
>>>> taxpayers who have been frugal and realistic to insure the bad debt of banks
>>>> and governments which have not..  As far as the US rich states and poor, I
>>>> don't think that argument is comparable on several levels, and question the
>>>> core premise.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the rest of the world being hurt, I just think the hurt of the
>>>> world is a done deal: oceans fished out, growing contamination of water,
>>>>  infrastructure and food supply dependence on fossil fuels, massive climate
>>>> change, and large scale international financial fraud, growing wealth
>>>> divide, 7 billion and exponentially growing . The opportunities for
>>>> corporate profits are diminished and bloody. And what has been built with
>>>> all that money is a giant machine for burning fossil fuel.   The dream of
>>>> propping up the current system without deep structural changes is a delusion
>>>> that is pointing toward a fork in the road. And as  a famous Yogi said,
>>>> "When you see a fork in the road, take it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:44 AM, David Morris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thing is there is no option of "fixing" this mess. A large
>>>>>>> transition is overdue and inevitable..Why be afraid of letting the big banks
>>>>>>> die? The sooner people face the future without dragon lairs in their dreams
>>>>>>> the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's the Euro that's at stake here more than some big banks.
>>>>> And if Europe's economy tail-dives, the rest of the world will also be
>>>>> hurt.  The problem in Yurp is political at its base:  Yurp wanted a
>>>>> common currenct,butisn't willing to act for a common good.  In the US
>>>>> rich states routine subsidize poor states through Federal taxes, and
>>>>> no one feels abused.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>



-- 
"Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant