frank miller

[Joseph Tracy]

A good list of problems but the current direction points toward what Laura described so clearly. Her vision may be gloomy but it is all too realistic in describing the vector of current events and prevailing forces. So Michael, do you have a better idea than this messy attempt to revive the revolutionary spirit of people demanding representation for the unrepresented? Because apart from a massive tax revolt I can't see much and this movement might lead to a successful general strike. Right Now 33 % strongly support the OWS movement, despite a lot of negative media. That is a stronger percentage of strong support than the president or any rival candidate. Could be a lot worse.

now to your list
a) without a single leader many articulate leaders  and artists have been embraced and participated eloquently: Naomi Klein, Chris Hedges, Michael Moore, Arundhati Roy, Ry Cooder, Russel Simmons, SEIU leader Mary Henry, Cornel West, Asmaa Mahfouz (key leader of Tahrir square revolution), and many, many new voices powerfully addressing the gap between those with and without a say in their lives.
b) but time after time it is the unconstitutional behavior and excessive force of "authorities"that is being revealed in glaring and unflattering light. Neverthless these young people feel wiser , more peaceful, and more eager to work with the cops and others while not giving up their occupation of public space, than those led by more radical elements in the 60's.  I try to follow quaker peace methods( not that great at it), but watching the film Burma vj has shaken my faith in the power of non-violent resistance pretty deeply. We are far from a place where violence makes any sense,and iam the first to argue that a violentrevolution tends to produce violent authoritarian leaders, but sometimes a bully needs to learn the hard way and people will protect themselves.
c)No doubt this is very tough and the reason I am not there though I have been arrested  this year with vets for peace. One can also be in a supporting role and there has been much support. The key is that paying this price has produced a huge wave of support, disruption of the status quo, and exposure of the widespread discontent with the Power of Wall street and purchase of democracy. It's a creative tactic and it seems to be unleashing new creative tactics and provoking dissenters to be creative.
d)Not sure I buy the idea that those who stayed in the system had the largest effect .  Could be an interesting topic to pursue? Also  those who did have an effect usually did not scoff at the 60s revolution but took it to wherever they were from Dan Ellsberg to Angela Davis, to Gloria Steinem, to Thomas Pynchon.

One of the things I like about OWS is the importance of self education. They have a library, assemblies, speakers, and these are important. Lot of photos of young adults reading. 

My thoughts on OWS, 350.org, Democracy Now, Alternet, Michael Moore, the various components of the world wide anti-war and human justice movement. THIS IS IT. THIS IS WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO CHANGE DIRECTION . This is the hope that Obama promised but failed to occupy. Both parties work for international corporate interests and the Military. The differences are trivial. THIS IS THE REMNANTS OF DEMOCRACY IN THE US.

On Nov 18, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Michael Bailey wrote:

> Hmm.  What does affect these evildoers?
> Mass civil disobedience in bringing their operations to a halt would
> be something to see
> but who will bell that cat?
> 
> so many problems -
> 
> a) a charismatic leader is vulnerable to assassination or cooptation,
> but without articulate spokespeople the message is muddled
> 
> b) a mass movement is vulnerable to agents provocateur and the human
> frailties of its participants
> 
> c) the supply lines for simply keeping body and soul together in the
> act of challenging established evildoers are problematic too (I always
> wonder how somebody sustains a long protest - who's feeding their cat,
> paying their electric bill, watching their kids?)
> 
> d) predicating action on an adversarial relationship tilts the playing
> field in favor of those who continually practice adversarial
> techniques (nightmarish big guys swinging lead pipes, eg) - when you
> look back at the 60s, those who scoffed at people "working within the
> system" don't seem to have achieved as much, in retrospect, as those
> at whom they scoffed...
> 
> My conclusion: if they get some media attention, spark some
> discussion, and avoid both getting slaughtered (always a sad event)
> and undercutting meliorist factions (to the great gain of intransigent
> reactionaries) by making the perfect the enemy of the good...that
> would seem to be a reachable success that I could applaud...
> 
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Right. If no pays attention to the problem, the problem is permitted
>> unfettered growth. The problem is not OWS, they draw attention to the
>> problem.
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Michael F <mff8785 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What truly shows how half-baked alot of these Occcupy movements are:
>>> the money corporations are in Danville and San Ramon and
>>> Dublin/Pleasanton(20-30 minutes outside of Oakland).  And these guys
>>> are messing with one Fortune 500 hundred company, which will leave
>>> sooner than later, and other smaller businesses that are giving tax
>>> revenues to a broken Oakland?  Rather than using strategy to succeed,
>>> these Occupy folks are just looking to get media attention, which is
>>> what there true goal is... attention.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:45 PM, glenn <glennfuller at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> There is an Occupy San Francisco  movement in the SF financial district
>>>> which has been going on as long as Occupy Oakland, as well as an Occupy
>>>> Berkeley, Occupy UC, (which is located on UC Berkeley Campus),  Occupy San
>>>> Jose, Occupy San Raphael, hell even an Occupy Walnut Creek, (though occupy
>>>> WC doesn't have any encampments).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/14/2011 02:27 PM, Humberto Torofuerte wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Never met any Oakland cops (sounds like I am better off for it) so
>>>>> I'll reserve judgement...but why not take the train across the bay and
>>>>> occupy San Francisco's financial district...where all the banks and
>>>>> hedge funds are?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Ian Livingston<igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah well somebody has to keep those Raiders fans in line.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, well, it probably won't be the cops who do that. The cops are
>>>>>> all Raiders fans and would rather be bashing activist heads.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Humberto Torofuerte
>>>>>> <strongbool at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 12:19 PM, David Morris<fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And Oakland's cops really are pigs.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:19 PM, David Morris<fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Not everyone can make it to Wall Street.  I see it as a solidarity
>>>>>>>>> statement.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Humberto Torofuerte
>>>>>>>>> <strongbool at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  I don't think cities like Portland or Oakland are where the
>>>>>>>>>> financial engineering of destruction was happening.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
>>>>>> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
>>>>>> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
>>>>>> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
>>>>>> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
>> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
>> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
>> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
>> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>>