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Ian Livingston igrlivingston at gmail.com
Wed Dec 26 12:42:23 CST 2012


Yes, Keith, I agree that liberty (both positive and negative) is one of P's
central questions. And complexity is the primary characteristic of any
attempt at answering the question of liberty to do what / liberty from
what. Even Vibe is clearly a prisoner of his role, and an unsympathetic
victim of his lot in life, including his own decisions. It's easier for us
workers to sympathize with Webb, but he, too, like Abbie Hoffman or Angela
Davis, is trapped in his karma (for lack of a better term).

I think with Pynchon there is little, as Kai, implies, that can be simply
answered. The Cloud, like the Tower, is everywhere.


On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems to me that the third aspect to which you refer might be more
> accurately characterized as a mediating force between the first two. The
> "others" to which you refer are all also at the mercy of forces beyond
> comprehension by the intellect, despite how close we feel we come to
> understanding through science. There may seem to be a hierarchy of power
> through which those at the "top" exert control over those at the "bottom",
> implying that they have more freedom of choice and action, but everyone
> involved is equally trapped in their role. Is there a chance for freedom?
> Freedom from what? This is one of the questions, maybe the question, that I
> see P exploring in his fictions.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 25.12.2012 23:33, Ian Livingston wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm not so sure about P's singling out for dissing the contemplatives,
>> though. It seems to me he is equally ready to dis those too eager to act
>> without considering the repercussions of their actions. Benny and the Crew,
>> Slothrop, Lake, maybe even Zoyd and Mucho might be examples of characters
>> inclined to action and reaction as opposed to the over-contemplative
>> (Mason? Roger M?), though, in the end, I am inclined to see all as aspects
>> of the human psyche. You got your poles and then there's all that's in
>> between.
>>
>>
>> Makes me think of a verse from the Bhagavad Gita (IV.18):
>>
>> *"One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is
>> intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although
>> engaged in all sorts of activities."*
>>
>> Doubtful whether Father Ponko's comparison of the Hesychasts with
>> "Japanese Buddhists (...) literally gazing at their navels" can be
>> attributed to Pynchon himself, but it reminds me of my philosophy teacher
>> from high school. As the left Hegelian (Linkshegelianer) he was, he always
>> became kinda furious when people asked about Eastern religion: "The
>> Buddhist is an egoist sitting in his cabin all day long and the only thing
>> he ever does is to meditate!" Those were the days before political
>> correctness.
>>
>> Goethe's *Faust* (vgl. 1215-1237) seems to be relevant here too: Faust,
>> in need of supernatural inspiration, is translating John 1.1. ("In the
>> beginning was the Word ...") and, doubting the superiority of language
>> ("Ich kann das *Wort* so hoch unmöglich schätzen"), replaces "word" by
>> "deed".  In the beginning was the Deed ... This of course is echoing J.G.
>> Fichte and foreshadowing thesis 11.
>>
>> When it comes to characterize Pynchon's personages, it's imo important
>> not to stay with action-oriented on the one and over-contemplative on the
>> other side but to introduce a third aspect that refers to being manipulated
>> by others ("Them"). Isn't Slothrop always already trapped by conspiracy?
>>
>> And if "Cyprian and his monastery decision" are "a metaphor for the
>> reclusive dedication of our writer", what exactly is this telling us about
>> Pynchon? That he stopped taking part in societal conflicts?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    If Cyprian and his decision(s) are some kind of upbeat authorial
>>> value embodiment in
>>> AtD, "the Heyschasts, who might as well have been Japanese
>>> Buddhists---they sat in their cells,
>>> gazing at their navels, waiting to be enfolded in a glorious light they
>>> believed was the same light
>>> Peter, James, and John had witnessed at theTransfiguration of Christ on
>>> Mount Tabor.......
>>> are not.
>>>
>>> the place where human nature met God---wikipedia describing the
>>> theological import of
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus"
>>>
>>> "perhaps they asked themselves forms of your question as well, as a sort
>>> of koan. What is it that
>>> is born of *that *light? Oddly, if one reads the Gospel accounts, the
>>> emphasis in all three is not on
>>> an excess of light but a deficiency---the Transfiguration occurred at
>>> best under a peculiar sort of half-light.
>>> 'There came a cloud and overshadowed them", as Luke puts it. Those *omphalopsychoi
>>> *might have
>>> seen a holy light, but its link with the Transfiguration is doubtful.
>>>
>>> A little hermenuetical theology from our God-obsessed writer? Knows the
>>> Gospel accounts yet,
>>> gives us another metaphor for agnosticism? Clouds. Or another dissing of
>>> religious belief altogether
>>> even if Buddhist. As above, so below?
>>>
>>> Certainly a dissing of navel-gazing whether Western or Eastern? Action
>>> matters, even if it is Cyprian's
>>> self-reclusive action? Is Cyprian and his monastery decision a metaphor
>>> for the reclusive dedication of
>>> our writer?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.innergroovemusic.com
>
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