Since anomie has been brought to the table

[Keith Davis]

I think we need a moderator, like we have here on the Plist. When someone
comes up with a really stupid idea (post)
that idea is simply consigned to oblivion.

"Hey, i think we should attack Ir...DELETE"

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>wrote:

> Well, I cannot agree that fiction is an adequately representative
> sample of human insight upon which to base a generalization to all
> humanity, and particularly not Nobel literature, which prize is
> awarded more for prose and overall beauty than the deep study of human
> psychology, philosophy, and sociology. Literature certainly can shade
> our interpretations and provide metaphors by which to express the
> insights derived through study, but it does not substitute for
> scientific investigation. Anyway, for every Nobel laureate awarded for
> insights into human violence, there are legion examples of human
> kindness and succor in the world.
>
> I will agree, however, that governments foment violence, because
> governments represent the potential power of a people concentrated
> into bodies skewed by avarice, lust, and the desire for personal fame
> that those thus represented consent to follow. Individuals are more
> capable of progressing along lines of development than are groups, and
> when it comes to violence, it is the line of values development that
> is most influential. If a woman or a man desires something the pursuit
> of which will do no harm to others, that pursuit may be said to be
> virtuous, in keeping with the values of what is good for all; if, on
> the other hand, that person desires something in someone else's house
> and that person would be harmed by the loss of what the first desires,
> then the pursuit of that desired object is not virtuous, and runs
> counter to the value system of what is good. A fight will almost
> certainly ensue. Governments make those fights big, nasty brawls that
> kill lots of innocent people and destroy billions of non-human lives
> in the process. No adequate assessment has even been attempted, for
> instance, of the impact the massive bombing the US gave SE Asia during
> the Vietnam War. There really is no way of knowing how many species
> might have been thus rendered extinct. But, wait, I'm down a rabbit
> hole. It is not because humans are violent by nature that wars get
> waged, but because groups of humans progress slowly along
> developmental lines. We can sit back at our distance and judge the
> warriors from our personal developmental memes and say oh, what beasts
> men are, but in so doing we speak only about our values, not about
> what fed the violence and how to help prevent that from happening
> again. It seems logical that there are ways to avert
> government-sponsored violence, and the thought of doing so certainly
> induces good feeling, but the how of it is a big question. Maybe there
> could be some test to determine the ability of potential leaders to
> negotiate changes in values that represent that which is most
> conducive to goodness for all, or some such utopian plan. If the
> future is an open book, it behooves us to keep the book open.
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Very interesting thread. Thanks Alice. Agreed, we have this violent
> streak.
> > Is it more pronounced in some, or simply less under control? Who decides
> > what level is socially acceptable? It's a difficult question to answer.
> > Democracy seemed like the best idea so far, and still does, in many ways,
> > but how do we make it work for everyone? Again, difficult. So many
> different
> > cultures, levels of intelligence, moral awareness, belief systems, etc.
> So
> > many different people living in increasingly compressed spaces.
> >
> > As far as suicide, we know so much about human psychology, sociology,
> but I
> > still don't think we really completely understand what drives us.
> >
> > There's a lot in this thread to think about.
> >
> > anomie-"an acute disjunction between the cultural norms and goals and the
> > socially structured capacities of the members of the group to act in
> accord
> > with them". How big is the group? Our neighborhood, state, church,
> school,
> > country? Complicated issues.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
> > <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Don't know about your specific type of think tank, but of course there's
> >> Robert K. Merton, one of the most important sociologists of the 20th
> >> century, who referred to Durkheim's concept of anomie and transfered it
> to
> >> his theory of deviance (still used in today's criminology) in 1938.
> Merton
> >> defines anomie as "an acute disjunction between the cultural norms and
> goals
> >> and the socially structured capacities of the members of the group to
> act in
> >> accord with them". So there is no continuity between cultural goals and
> the
> >> required means. At least not when you stay with legitimate and legal
> means.
> >> So some - think Pacino in Scarface - become criminals to fulfill their
> >> American Dream --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07.01.2012 16:35, Paul Mackin wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>> The staff sociologist at the think tank i was at used to use the word
> to
> >>> described the psychological state of workers brought about by the
> >>> meaninglessness of industrial work.
> >>>
> >>> Lack of rule was extended to mean lack of meaning.
> >>>
> >>> He quoted Durkheim sometimes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.innergroovemusic.com
>
>
>
> --
> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>



-- 
www.innergroovemusic.com
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