Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891

[Paul Mackin]

On 6/4/2012 11:17 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
> Paul writes:
> "Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is actually REAL,
> Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self aware it
> perceives itself as a physical reality.
> !! Where do you source this? I ask because I JUST READ that notion
> in an early chapter of The Glass Bead Game, pointed to slant from a
> non-plister who attributed it to Turing?? That is, the self-awareness
> concept.
> And, for the breadth of this discussion, I can add: later Wittgenstein
> argued
> that EVEN mathematics was humanly-created as a 'form of life' so to use
> his key concept, nothing in math, not numbers, addition, etc. was
> Platonic....(Witt was very anti-Platonic and his Remarks on Mathematics
> very disputedly controversial).
> and we know TRP read and used SOME Wittgenstein elsewhere.

See Prashant's reply concerning the possibility. He would go along with 
Witt I imagine.

I was referring to the mathematical universe hypothesis, but probably 
described it slipshodly.

Wasn't Turing talking about machine self awareness?

Math self awareness would seem to be a quantum leap beyond.

If this has any meaning at all, I'd like to hear from Preshant on it.

P


>
> *From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
> *To:* pynchon-l at waste.org
> *Sent:* Monday, June 4, 2012 10:52 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>
> On 6/3/2012 10:54 PM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
>  > "Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do with math. Still
>  > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized this she would have
>  > been very good."
>  >
>  > I'm not sure what you mean here. The idea she suggests to Riemann in his
>  > lecture was, for a while, the basis of many attempts to prove the
>  > Riemann hypothesis.
>
> I didn't mean THAT idea.
>  >
>  > "Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality is an evolutionary
>  > adaptation. As such it is a practical tool, not some Platonic ideal. It
>  > doesn't have to make perfect sense. Goedel and all that. "
>  >
>  > The way mathematical ability evolved in humans doesn't necessarily imply
>  > anything about the extent of its utility. Mathematics is more than just
>  > rationality, it is logical abstraction as well. It does have to make
>  > perfect sense. Goedel's incompleteness theorems dictate the properties
>  > of certain formal logical systems, like predicate logic for example. It
>  > doesn't have much bearing on most of the rest of maths, despite popular
>  > assertions to the contrary.
>
> Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is actually REAL,
> Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self aware it
> perceives itself as a physical reality.
>
>  >
>  > Prashant
>  >
>  > On 4 June 2012 00:56, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>  > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>> wrote:
>  >
>  > On 6/3/2012 10:21 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>  >
>  > Paul Mackin writes:
>  > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to have more
>  > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as important
>  > as that
>  > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance requires some higher
>  > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>  > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it, but I can't
>  > at the
>  > moment think of anything better.
>  > At one point, Ljubica puts flowers in a gun barrel.......part of
>  > TRP's
>  > sixties images and themes? ( a little groan-worthy by now?)
>  >
>  >
>  > Maybe it was let a hundred flowers blossom. Naw.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > And, re maths......I think that Yashmeen giving up higher math is
>  > part of TRP's book-length general satirization of the uses of math
>  > in the modern world.......
>  >
>  >
>  > Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do with math. Still
>  > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized this she would
>  > have been very good.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > From Plato thru "mad Dog' Russell, mathematicians talk of the
>  > abstraction
>  > that is mathematics and abstraction links with the daylit
>  > fictions, the
>  > balloon,
>  > the bloviations of most in AtD, I would argue.
>  > And, we don't live in the world of mathematics, we live in the
>  > world of
>  > children's sensations, I think TRP puts out there thematically---
>  > & he also might have gotten related notions from McLuhan......
>  >
>  >
>  > Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality is an
>  > evolutionary adaptation. As such it is a practical tool, not some
>  > Platonic ideal. It doesn't have to make perfect sense. Goedel and
>  > all that.
>  >
>  > P
>  >
>  >
>  > *From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>  > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>>
>  > *To:* pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>  > *Sent:* Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:49 AM
>  > *Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>  >
>  >
>  > On 6/2/2012 11:46 AM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>  > > Paul Mackin wrote:
>  > >
>  > >> Alice knows. What we are witnessing in the foundation of the
>  > Holy Family
>  > >> Traverse in which Yashmeen is to become the mother of the
>  > baby Jes .
>  > . . .
>  > >> And a good deal of purple prose is necessary get this
>  > across, make it
>  > >> sufficiently portentous.
>  > >
>  > > Yes, Paul, I tend to forget that there are more levels to
>  > this than
>  > > the feminist angle I was focusing on.
>  > > The Holy Family stuff with Cyps and Reef and Yashmeen, I got
>  > to admit,
>  > > slides by me largely unappreciated.
>  > >
>  > > It reminds me of that prison family stuff that the
>  > late-capitalist
>  > > pearl girl in IV talks about...
>  > >
>  > > You go into the pages of history with the personnel you have,
>  > not the
>  > > personnel that you might want to have.
>  > >
>  > > The symbolism of the eagle is broader than just the "oh no,
>  > Yashmeen's
>  > > about to get predated into family life"
>  > > The eagle's diet is the ground-dwelling vermin and compared
>  > to making
>  > > a family, I suppose that any commercial or intellectual
>  > occupation
>  > > makes of one by comparison a rat, a shrew, or a vole -- I guess
>  > > that's why they play Mack the Knife at wedding receptions...
>  > >
>  > > This is where my viewpont re-converges with Mark's: yes,
>  > ultimately
>  > > the continuance of the species is more important than whatever
>  > > individual accomplishments one might have wanted to see from
>  > Yashmeen.
>  > > She did, after, make that anonymous contribution in Professor
>  > > Hilbert's class, and how many of us get to make even an anonymous
>  > > contribution -- things are tough all over, we're all riding that
>  > > Ferris Wheel and all you might be offered is a bite of
>  > jellied eel...
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to have more
>  > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as important
>  > as that
>  > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance requires some higher
>  > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>  >
>  >
>  > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it, but I can't
>  > at the
>  > moment think of anything better.
>  >
>  > P
>  >
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