Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
Paul Mackin
mackin.paul at verizon.net
Sun Jun 10 09:26:47 CDT 2012
On 6/10/2012 7:38 AM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
> I use the term affectionately. Everything was once crackpottery.
I understand.
It's good that we have a resident physicist--things that come up
reading Pynchon being as they are.
P
>
> prashant
>
> On 10 June 2012 20:18, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
> On 6/9/2012 10:14 PM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
>> The mathematical universe hypothesis is interesting in the
>> abstract, but viewing it from the perspective of a physicist,
>> it's not all that useful. Even in Tegmark's original paper I
>> don't think the implications are that compelling. The universe is
>> self-aware maths. Ok, so what then? Not everything predicted by
>> theory is found in physical systems; this is why the discovery of
>> a new particle or somesuch is such a big event.
>>
>> And you run into all kinds of problems, not least of which being
>> the existence of quanta. Why should the universe be discrete? A
>> more interesting piece of crackpottery, I find, is the idea of
>> the universe being a simulation. If you argue it just right, you
>> can construe certain parts of quantum mechanics as indicative of
>> some sort of computer program; a simulation. If I'm modeling
>> something computationally, the first thing is to consider the
>> problem discretely, by chopping up time and distance etc into
>> quanta. Quantum uncertainty would correspond to the machine
>> precision of the 'computer'. I might also set a maximum speed, to
>> prevent infinities. Now, this is easy enough to pick apart with
>> advanced quantum field theory, but I find it compelling nonetheless.
>
> Thanks, Prashant. Thinking about the nature of the
> universe--crackpottery or no--is enough to make one's head swim.
>
>
> P
>>
>> Prashant
>>
>> On 5 June 2012 02:41, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 6/4/2012 11:17 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>
>> Paul writes:
>> "Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is
>> actually REAL,
>> Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self
>> aware it
>> perceives itself as a physical reality.
>> !! Where do you source this? I ask because I JUST READ
>> that notion
>> in an early chapter of The Glass Bead Game, pointed to
>> slant from a
>> non-plister who attributed it to Turing?? That is, the
>> self-awareness
>> concept.
>> And, for the breadth of this discussion, I can add: later
>> Wittgenstein
>> argued
>> that EVEN mathematics was humanly-created as a 'form of
>> life' so to use
>> his key concept, nothing in math, not numbers, addition,
>> etc. was
>> Platonic....(Witt was very anti-Platonic and his Remarks
>> on Mathematics
>> very disputedly controversial).
>> and we know TRP read and used SOME Wittgenstein elsewhere.
>>
>>
>> See Prashant's reply concerning the possibility. He would go
>> along with Witt I imagine.
>>
>> I was referring to the mathematical universe hypothesis, but
>> probably described it slipshodly.
>>
>> Wasn't Turing talking about machine self awareness?
>>
>> Math self awareness would seem to be a quantum leap beyond.
>>
>> If this has any meaning at all, I'd like to hear from
>> Preshant on it.
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>
>> *To:* pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 4, 2012 10:52 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>>
>> On 6/3/2012 10:54 PM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
>> > "Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do
>> with math. Still
>> > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized
>> this she would have
>> > been very good."
>> >
>> > I'm not sure what you mean here. The idea she suggests
>> to Riemann in his
>> > lecture was, for a while, the basis of many attempts
>> to prove the
>> > Riemann hypothesis.
>>
>> I didn't mean THAT idea.
>> >
>> > "Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality
>> is an evolutionary
>> > adaptation. As such it is a practical tool, not some
>> Platonic ideal. It
>> > doesn't have to make perfect sense. Goedel and all that. "
>> >
>> > The way mathematical ability evolved in humans doesn't
>> necessarily imply
>> > anything about the extent of its utility. Mathematics
>> is more than just
>> > rationality, it is logical abstraction as well. It
>> does have to make
>> > perfect sense. Goedel's incompleteness theorems
>> dictate the properties
>> > of certain formal logical systems, like predicate
>> logic for example. It
>> > doesn't have much bearing on most of the rest of
>> maths, despite popular
>> > assertions to the contrary.
>>
>> Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is
>> actually REAL,
>> Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self
>> aware it
>> perceives itself as a physical reality.
>>
>> >
>> > Prashant
>> >
>> > On 4 June 2012 00:56, Paul Mackin
>> <mackin.paul at verizon.net <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>
>> > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 6/3/2012 10:21 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>> >
>> > Paul Mackin writes:
>> > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to
>> have more
>> > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as
>> important
>> > as that
>> > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance
>> requires some higher
>> > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>> > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it,
>> but I can't
>> > at the
>> > moment think of anything better.
>> > At one point, Ljubica puts flowers in a gun
>> barrel.......part of
>> > TRP's
>> > sixties images and themes? ( a little groan-worthy by
>> now?)
>> >
>> >
>> > Maybe it was let a hundred flowers blossom. Naw.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And, re maths......I think that Yashmeen giving up
>> higher math is
>> > part of TRP's book-length general satirization of the
>> uses of math
>> > in the modern world.......
>> >
>> >
>> > Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do
>> with math. Still
>> > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized
>> this she would
>> > have been very good.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From Plato thru "mad Dog' Russell, mathematicians talk
>> of the
>> > abstraction
>> > that is mathematics and abstraction links with the daylit
>> > fictions, the
>> > balloon,
>> > the bloviations of most in AtD, I would argue.
>> > And, we don't live in the world of mathematics, we
>> live in the
>> > world of
>> > children's sensations, I think TRP puts out there
>> thematically---
>> > & he also might have gotten related notions from
>> McLuhan......
>> >
>> >
>> > Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality is an
>> > evolutionary adaptation. As such it is a practical
>> tool, not some
>> > Platonic ideal. It doesn't have to make perfect sense.
>> Goedel and
>> > all that.
>> >
>> > P
>> >
>> >
>> > *From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>
>> > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>>>
>>
>> > *To:* pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>>
>>
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:49 AM
>> > *Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>> >
>> >
>> > On 6/2/2012 11:46 AM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>> > > Paul Mackin wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Alice knows. What we are witnessing in the
>> foundation of the
>> > Holy Family
>> > >> Traverse in which Yashmeen is to become the mother
>> of the
>> > baby Jes .
>> > . . .
>> > >> And a good deal of purple prose is necessary get this
>> > across, make it
>> > >> sufficiently portentous.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, Paul, I tend to forget that there are more
>> levels to
>> > this than
>> > > the feminist angle I was focusing on.
>> > > The Holy Family stuff with Cyps and Reef and
>> Yashmeen, I got
>> > to admit,
>> > > slides by me largely unappreciated.
>> > >
>> > > It reminds me of that prison family stuff that the
>> > late-capitalist
>> > > pearl girl in IV talks about...
>> > >
>> > > You go into the pages of history with the personnel
>> you have,
>> > not the
>> > > personnel that you might want to have.
>> > >
>> > > The symbolism of the eagle is broader than just the
>> "oh no,
>> > Yashmeen's
>> > > about to get predated into family life"
>> > > The eagle's diet is the ground-dwelling vermin and
>> compared
>> > to making
>> > > a family, I suppose that any commercial or intellectual
>> > occupation
>> > > makes of one by comparison a rat, a shrew, or a vole
>> -- I guess
>> > > that's why they play Mack the Knife at wedding
>> receptions...
>> > >
>> > > This is where my viewpont re-converges with Mark's: yes,
>> > ultimately
>> > > the continuance of the species is more important
>> than whatever
>> > > individual accomplishments one might have wanted to
>> see from
>> > Yashmeen.
>> > > She did, after, make that anonymous contribution in
>> Professor
>> > > Hilbert's class, and how many of us get to make even
>> an anonymous
>> > > contribution -- things are tough all over, we're all
>> riding that
>> > > Ferris Wheel and all you might be offered is a bite of
>> > jellied eel...
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to
>> have more
>> > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as
>> important
>> > as that
>> > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance
>> requires some higher
>> > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>> >
>> >
>> > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it,
>> but I can't
>> > at the
>> > moment think of anything better.
>> >
>> > P
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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