Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891

Sun Jun 10 09:36:34 CDT 2012

I feel I cannot let "the universe is self-aware maths" go unchallenged. 

However we can express our understanding of the universe, even via maths,
Maths, per se, are not self-aware yet

at least one kind of being in the universe is....

From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
To: pynchon-l at waste.org 
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891

On 6/10/2012 7:38 AM, Prashant Kumar wrote:

I use the term affectionately. Everything was once crackpottery.
>
I understand.

It's good that we  have a resident physicist--things that come up reading Pynchon being as they are.

P

>
>prashant
>
>On 10 June 2012 20:18, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>On 6/9/2012 10:14 PM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
>>
>>The mathematical universe hypothesis is interesting in the abstract, but viewing it from the perspective of a physicist, it's not all that useful. Even in Tegmark's original paper I don't think the implications are that compelling. The universe is self-aware maths. Ok, so what then? Not everything predicted by theory is found in physical systems; this is why the discovery of a new particle or somesuch is such a big event.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>And you run into all kinds of problems, not least of which being the existence of quanta. Why should the universe be discrete?  A more interesting piece of crackpottery, I find, is the idea of the universe being a simulation. If you argue it just right, you can construe certain parts of quantum mechanics as indicative of some sort of computer program; a simulation. If I'm modeling something computationally, the first thing is to consider the problem discretely, by chopping up time and distance etc into quanta. Quantum uncertainty would correspond to the machine precision of the 'computer'. I might also set a maximum speed, to prevent infinities. Now, this is easy enough to pick apart with advanced quantum field theory, but I find it compelling nonetheless.
>>Thanks, Prashant.  Thinking about the nature of the universe--crackpottery or no--is enough to make one's head swim. 
>>
>>
>>P
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Prashant
>>>
>>>On 5 June 2012 02:41, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>On 6/4/2012 11:17 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Paul writes:
>>>>>"Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is actually REAL,
>>>>>Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self aware it
>>>>>perceives itself as a physical reality.
>>>>>!! Where do you source this? I ask because I JUST READ that notion
>>>>>in an early chapter of The Glass Bead Game, pointed to slant from a
>>>>>non-plister who attributed it to Turing?? That is, the self-awareness
>>>>>concept.
>>>>>And, for the breadth of this discussion, I can add: later Wittgenstein
>>>>>argued
>>>>>that EVEN mathematics was humanly-created as a 'form of life' so to use
>>>>>his key concept, nothing in math, not numbers, addition, etc. was
>>>>>Platonic....(Witt was very anti-Platonic and his Remarks on Mathematics
>>>>>very disputedly controversial).
>>>>>and we know TRP read and used SOME Wittgenstein elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>See Prashant's reply concerning the possibility. He would go along with Witt I imagine.
>>>>
>>>>I was referring to the mathematical universe hypothesis, but probably described it slipshodly.
>>>>
>>>>Wasn't Turing talking about machine self awareness?
>>>>
>>>>Math self awareness would seem to be a quantum leap beyond.
>>>>
>>>>If this has any meaning at all, I'd like to hear from Preshant on it.
>>>>
>>>>P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>*From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>>>>>*To:* pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>>>*Sent:* Monday, June 4, 2012 10:52 AM 
>>>>>
>>>>>*Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 6/3/2012 10:54 PM, Prashant Kumar wrote:
>>>>> > "Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do with math. Still
>>>>> > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized this she would have
>>>>> > been very good."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'm not sure what you mean here. The idea she suggests to Riemann in his
>>>>> > lecture was, for a while, the basis of many attempts to prove the
>>>>> > Riemann hypothesis.
>>>>>
>>>>>I didn't mean THAT idea.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality is an evolutionary
>>>>> > adaptation. As such it is a practical tool, not some Platonic ideal. It
>>>>> > doesn't have to make perfect sense. Goedel and all that. "
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The way mathematical ability evolved in humans doesn't necessarily imply
>>>>> > anything about the extent of its utility. Mathematics is more than just
>>>>> > rationality, it is logical abstraction as well. It does have to make
>>>>> > perfect sense. Goedel's incompleteness theorems dictate the properties
>>>>> > of certain formal logical systems, like predicate logic for example. It
>>>>> > doesn't have much bearing on most of the rest of maths, despite popular
>>>>> > assertions to the contrary.
>>>>>
>>>>>Interesting to know. There's also that Platonic idea is actually REAL,
>>>>>Godel-complete math that is, and that as it becomes self aware it
>>>>>perceives itself as a physical reality.
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Prashant
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 4 June 2012 00:56, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
>>>>><mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 6/3/2012 10:21 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Paul Mackin writes:
>>>>> > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to have more
>>>>> > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as important
>>>>> > as that
>>>>> > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance requires some higher
>>>>> > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>>>>> > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it, but I can't
>>>>> > at the
>>>>> > moment think of anything better.
>>>>> > At one point, Ljubica puts flowers in a gun barrel.......part of
>>>>> > TRP's
>>>>> > sixties images and themes? ( a little groan-worthy by now?)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Maybe it was let a hundred flowers blossom. Naw.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And, re maths......I think that Yashmeen giving up higher math is
>>>>> > part of TRP's book-length general satirization of the uses of math
>>>>> > in the modern world.......
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Y certainly had an inflated idea of what you can do with math. Still
>>>>> > there's a lot you CAN do with it. Once she realized this she would
>>>>> > have been very good.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > From Plato thru "mad Dog' Russell, mathematicians talk of the
>>>>> > abstraction
>>>>> > that is mathematics and abstraction links with the daylit
>>>>> > fictions, the
>>>>> > balloon,
>>>>> > the bloviations of most in AtD, I would argue.
>>>>> > And, we don't live in the world of mathematics, we live in the
>>>>> > world of
>>>>> > children's sensations, I think TRP puts out there thematically---
>>>>> > & he also might have gotten related notions from McLuhan......
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Math is an advanced form of rationality. Rationality is an
>>>>> > evolutionary adaptation. As such it is a practical tool, not some
>>>>> > Platonic ideal. It doesn't have to make perfect sense. Goedel and
>>>>> > all that.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > P
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > *From:* Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
>>>>><mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>>>>> > <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> > *To:* pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>><mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:49 AM
>>>>> > *Subject:* Re: Back to AtD Reimann maths ain't life. p.891
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 6/2/2012 11:46 AM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>>>>> > > Paul Mackin wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >> Alice knows. What we are witnessing in the foundation of the
>>>>> > Holy Family
>>>>> > >> Traverse in which Yashmeen is to become the mother of the
>>>>> > baby Jes .
>>>>> > . . .
>>>>> > >> And a good deal of purple prose is necessary get this
>>>>> > across, make it
>>>>> > >> sufficiently portentous.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Yes, Paul, I tend to forget that there are more levels to
>>>>> > this than
>>>>> > > the feminist angle I was focusing on.
>>>>> > > The Holy Family stuff with Cyps and Reef and Yashmeen, I got
>>>>> > to admit,
>>>>> > > slides by me largely unappreciated.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > It reminds me of that prison family stuff that the
>>>>> > late-capitalist
>>>>> > > pearl girl in IV talks about...
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > You go into the pages of history with the personnel you have,
>>>>> > not the
>>>>> > > personnel that you might want to have.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The symbolism of the eagle is broader than just the "oh no,
>>>>> > Yashmeen's
>>>>> > > about to get predated into family life"
>>>>> > > The eagle's diet is the ground-dwelling vermin and compared
>>>>> > to making
>>>>> > > a family, I suppose that any commercial or intellectual
>>>>> > occupation
>>>>> > > makes of one by comparison a rat, a shrew, or a vole -- I guess
>>>>> > > that's why they play Mack the Knife at wedding receptions...
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > This is where my viewpont re-converges with Mark's: yes,
>>>>> > ultimately
>>>>> > > the continuance of the species is more important than whatever
>>>>> > > individual accomplishments one might have wanted to see from
>>>>> > Yashmeen.
>>>>> > > She did, after, make that anonymous contribution in Professor
>>>>> > > Hilbert's class, and how many of us get to make even an anonymous
>>>>> > > contribution -- things are tough all over, we're all riding that
>>>>> > > Ferris Wheel and all you might be offered is a bite of
>>>>> > jellied eel...
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The issue from the Cyprian/Yashmeen/Reef trio needs to have more
>>>>> > significance than merely perpetuating the species, as important
>>>>> > as that
>>>>> > is. Her snatching from the world of brilliance requires some higher
>>>>> > order purpose if this section of the book is to be saved.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The Holy Family thing obviously has big holes in it, but I can't
>>>>> > at the
>>>>> > moment think of anything better.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > P
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20120610/17ada459/attachment.html>