List of agnostics
Paul Mackin
mackin.paul at verizon.net
Thu Jun 28 15:35:14 CDT 2012
On 6/28/2012 2:00 PM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:
> comrade lemuel asked if we might explore religion/faith/spirituality
> in pynchon, and i've been musing on that ... here are some thoughts:
>
> i don't see any obvious reliance on, or confrontations with, faith in
> pynchon
Spiritualism in GR is treated in a rather funny way. On the one hand,
the seances are among the various often quite funny quackeries that
have been assembled at White Visitation in the service of winning the
war. On the other hand, there seem to be real connections made with the
dead, and of course the dead weren't always dead--their lives are part
of the story too. So, a faith orientation serves as a narrative
device. Does this count?
Same with Dixon and Rebekah.
Then there's Gnosticism.
As far as spirituality is concerned, does spirituality involve faith in
the supernatural (like spiritualism does for some)? Is seeing a soul in
every stone something that happens outside our mind. Any suspension of
the laws of nature required? Probably not, therefore not part of the
discusion.
P
> (although, i'm ashamed to admit, i have never finished M&D, and i feel
> there may be evidence there - alas!) in the way you see this process
> explored in say, the films of ingmar bergman, where, in the 50's in
> particular, he was often bumping up against the classic question,
> "god, why have you forsaken me?" (as in SEVENTH SEAL, WINTER LIGHT,
> VIRGIN SPRING, etc). nor do i see any obvious attempts to sum up
> spirituality - like you get in his FANNY AND ALEXANDER, where the
> jewish merchant's son describes (or, rather, quotes spinoza?) humanity
> and its deeds as "god's thought", which is what his father believes;
> whereas he believes that we are "god's nightmares".
>
> no, in pynchon, i find a strong tradition of existentialists, who mold
> their own moral/ethical codes based on their experience and personal
> history. sarte said (in his tract, EXISTENTIALISM IS A HUMANISM) it
> didn't matter whether you are a believer or not, you could include
> religion as just another tool in your toolkit that allows you to forge
> said moral code. (ok, i'm paraphrasing!) but regardless, your actions
> are what defines you, not your rhetoric.
>
> seems to me that slothrup, the traverse family, oedipa maas, doc
> sportello and the rest of pynchon's heroes take on this task and deal
> with what is on their plate. their deeds usually speak stronger than
> their words. they are usually bumping up against foes whose rhetoric
> and actions are, shall we say, sometimes not in perfect alignment.
>
> it does please me, as a native, that the one example that comes to
> mind of a kind of loose portrayal of spirituality that (someone) was
> citing yesterday that "we are all connected" is illustrated in AGAINST
> THE DAY in the chapter where frank traverse ingests a peyote-like
> substance and has classic shamanic visions. nice.
>
> without investigating further, that's all i can come up with off the
> tattered cuff.
>
> phillip
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> *To:* Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com>; "malignd at aol.com"
> <malignd at aol.com>; "pynchon-l at waste.org" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> *Sent:* Wed, June 27, 2012 11:45:40 PM
> *Subject:* Re: List of agnostics
>
> Religion IS paranoia. It is the disease that recreates the world
> according to the fable that everything connects, when, in fact, things
> rarely connect. Spinoza sees everything as an expression of the mind
> of God, and the human mind as that very mind of God incarnate. Of the
> worlds major religions, Taoism and atheism are the only ones that
> allow for disconnection, disparity. And of those, only atheism is the
> only religion that allows for uncorrected divergence. Also, as the
> great churches crumble in the face of scientific method and the
> advances in quality of life it brings, the lesser churches fill the
> gaps with perversions of dogma that make their palaver more palatable
> to the desperate people who find themselves lost in a world too
> complex to reduce to right and wrong without the aid of massive doses
> of denial. And denial results in projection, which connects everything
> back to God the Projector. I think of theists as people who believe
> independent agencies external to themselves cause them to act in ways
> they would not freely choose. The non-theist knows that the subject
> always chooses, whether consciously or not, and it is precisely the
> complexity of choice that makes possible the irruptions of seeming
> cooperation in the world. These are the anarchist miracles, which,
> projected upon, seem like they could be incursions from another reality.
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Lemuel Underwing
> <luunderwing at gmail.com <mailto:luunderwing at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> is there some sort of Religious Paranoia or a Religion /of /Paranoia?
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com
> <mailto:jude at bloomradio.com>> wrote:
>
> I dunno. We're in the midst of what seems unparalleled to me,
> at least in modern times: the rapid growth of atheism, and the
> rapid decline in religion. The intellectual & moral
> normalization of atheism. With the attendant death throes and
> spasms, i.e. religious craziness & violence. Plus, I think the
> fall-out from the Catlick priests & little boys is
> underestimated. For many folks, the Church has been
> irreparably Sanduskied. Although I see in re-reading Dubliners
> this week that Joyce was hip to those guys all along, a
> hundred years ago.
>
> I credit Hitchens, myself.
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Lemuel Underwing
> <luunderwing at gmail.com <mailto:luunderwing at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Mr. Malignd, I think you are in the Wrong Place, good sir.
> Byron the Bulb is still out there somewhere, a-shinin' down on
> us, Pynchonite Believers and Unbelievers alike. The Chums of
> Chance are not one of those more Religious Ballooning Clubs
> but some of the Crew are certainly more open to Spiritual
> Experience...?
>
> There is a site called reddit.com/r/atheism
> <http://reddit.com/r/atheism> that may be of some use to you,
> but let us keep ourselves on Task, eh? Let us turn away from
> the "World" and seek evidence of the Supernatural-in-Pynchon.
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:26 PM, <malignd at aol.com
> <mailto:malignd at aol.com>> wrote:
>
> Theological niceties aside, what at bottom is faith other
> than an irrational belief in a supernatural spirit world,
> for which there is not a shred of evidence?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net
> <mailto:pgsaxo at pacbell.net>>
> To: malignd <malignd at aol.com <mailto:malignd at aol.com>>
> Cc: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org
> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm
> Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 2:49 PM, malignd at aol.com
> <mailto:malignd at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm an atheist. The idea that there's a supernatural
>> diety who created the universe and also listens
>> personally to everyone's prayers -- that people believe
>> this ... I can't understand it. It's the thinking of
>> primitive people trying haplessly to explain the unknown
>> to themselves and yet it persists.
>>
>>
> ************************************
>
> your analysis of faith seems crude at best, but ok ... do
> your thing.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: kelber <kelber at mindspring.com
>> <mailto:kelber at mindspring.com>>
>> To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 11:14 am
>> Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>>
>> It's hard to believe that all the people on this list would identify themselves
>> as agnostics, rather than atheists (though it's possible that Pynchon might be
>> an agnostic - there's no way of knowing, which, I guess, makes us all
>> Pynchon-agnostics). Lots of people I know say things such as "I'm not
>> religious, but I still think there's some sort of intelligence out there." I
>> don't think they mean it in the Arthur C. Clarke sense, but more in a
>> spiritual-lite fear of there not being some sort of overriding moral force
>> guiding all that we do. Personally, I'm an atheist: there's no god, but if you
>> want to be religious, shut the fuck up about it!
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com <mailto:against.the.dave at gmail.com>>
>> >Sent: Jun 27, 2012 10:41 AM
>> >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>> >Subject: List of agnostics
>> >
>> >Thomas Pynchon, (born 1937): Catholic-raised author of The Crying of
>> >Lot 49 and Gravity's Rainbow. According to former friend, Jules
>> >Siegel, "he went to mass and confessed, though to what would be a
>> >mystery."
>> >
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics#Authors
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Less than any man have I excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20120628/5dfa52e3/attachment.html>
More information about the Pynchon-l
mailing list