List of agnostics

Thu Jun 28 13:00:05 CDT 2012

comrade lemuel asked if we might explore religion/faith/spirituality in pynchon, 
and i've been musing on that ... here are some thoughts:

i don't see any obvious reliance on, or confrontations with, faith in pynchon 
(although, i'm ashamed to admit, i have never finished M&D, and i feel there may 
be evidence there - alas!) in the way you see this process explored in say, the 
films of ingmar bergman, where, in the 50's in particular, he was often bumping 
up against the classic question, "god, why have you forsaken me?" (as in SEVENTH 
SEAL, WINTER LIGHT, VIRGIN SPRING, etc). nor do i see any obvious attempts to 
sum up spirituality - like you get in his FANNY AND ALEXANDER, where the jewish 
merchant's son describes (or, rather, quotes spinoza?) humanity and its deeds as 
"god's thought", which is what his father believes; whereas he believes that we 
are "god's nightmares".

no, in pynchon, i find a strong tradition of existentialists, who mold their own 
moral/ethical codes based on their experience and personal history. sarte said 
(in his tract, EXISTENTIALISM IS A HUMANISM) it didn't matter whether you are a 
believer or not, you could include religion as just another tool in your toolkit 
that allows you to forge said moral code. (ok, i'm paraphrasing!) but 
regardless, your actions are what defines you, not your rhetoric.

seems to me that slothrup, the traverse family, oedipa maas, doc sportello and 
the rest of pynchon's heroes take on this task and deal with what is on their 
plate. their deeds usually speak stronger than their words. they are usually 
bumping up against foes whose rhetoric and actions are, shall we say, sometimes 
not in perfect alignment.

it does please me, as a native, that the one example that comes to mind of a 
kind of loose portrayal of spirituality that (someone) was citing yesterday that 
"we are all connected" is illustrated in AGAINST THE DAY in the chapter where 
frank traverse ingests a peyote-like substance and has classic shamanic visions. 
nice.

without investigating further, that's all i can come up with off the tattered 
cuff.

phillip

________________________________
From: Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
To: Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
Cc: Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com>; "malignd at aol.com" <malignd at aol.com>; 
"pynchon-l at waste.org" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Wed, June 27, 2012 11:45:40 PM
Subject: Re: List of agnostics

Religion IS paranoia. It is the disease that recreates the world according to 
the fable that everything connects, when, in fact, things rarely connect. 
Spinoza sees everything as an expression of the mind of God, and the human mind 
as that very mind of God incarnate. Of the worlds major religions, Taoism and 
atheism are the only ones that allow for disconnection, disparity. And of those, 
only atheism is the only religion that allows for uncorrected divergence. Also, 
as the great churches crumble in the face of scientific method and the advances 
in quality of life it brings, the lesser churches fill the gaps with perversions 
of dogma that make their palaver more palatable to the desperate people who find 
themselves lost in a world too complex to reduce to right and wrong without the 
aid of massive doses of denial. And denial results in projection, which connects 
everything back to God the Projector. I think of theists as people who believe 
independent agencies external to themselves cause them to act in ways they would 
not freely choose. The non-theist knows that the subject always chooses, whether 
consciously or not, and it is precisely the complexity of choice that makes 
possible the irruptions of seeming cooperation in the world. These are the 
anarchist miracles, which, projected upon, seem like they could be incursions 
from another reality.

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com> 
wrote:

is there some sort of Religious Paranoia or a Religion of Paranoia?
>
>
>
>On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com> wrote:
>
>I dunno. We're in the midst of what seems unparalleled to me, at least in modern 
>times: the rapid growth of atheism, and the rapid decline in religion. The 
>intellectual & moral normalization of atheism. With the attendant death throes 
>and spasms, i.e. religious craziness & violence. Plus, I think the fall-out from 
>the Catlick priests & little boys is underestimated. For many folks, the Church 
>has been irreparably Sanduskied. Although I see in re-reading Dubliners this 
>week that Joyce was hip to those guys all along, a hundred years ago.
>>
>>
>>I credit Hitchens, myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Mr. Malignd, I think you are in the Wrong Place, good sir.  Byron the Bulb is 
>>still out there somewhere, a-shinin' down on us, Pynchonite Believers and 
>>Unbelievers alike. The Chums of Chance are not one of those more Religious 
>>Ballooning Clubs but some of the Crew are certainly more open to Spiritual 
>>Experience...? 
>>
>>
>>There is a site called reddit.com/r/atheism that may be of some use to you, but 
>>let us keep ourselves on Task, eh? Let us turn away from the "World" and seek 
>>evidence of the Supernatural-in-Pynchon.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:26 PM, <malignd at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Theological niceties aside, what at bottom is faith other than an irrational 
>>belief in a supernatural spirit world, for which there is not a shred of 
>>evidence?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
>>>To: malignd <malignd at aol.com>
>>>Cc: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm
>>>Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>>>
>>>
>>>On Jun 27, 2012, at 2:49 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm an atheist.  The idea that there's a supernatural diety who created the 
>>>universe and also listens personally to everyone's prayers -- that people 
>>>believe this ... I can't understand it.  It's the thinking of primitive people 
>>>trying haplessly to explain the unknown to themselves and yet it persists.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>************************************
>>
>>
>>your analysis of faith seems crude at best, but ok ... do your thing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: kelber <kelber at mindspring.com>
>>>To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 11:14 am
>>>Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>>>
>>>
>>>It's hard to believe that all the people on this list would identify themselves  
>>>as agnostics, rather than atheists (though it's possible that Pynchon might be  
>>>an agnostic - there's no way of knowing, which, I guess, makes us all  
>>>Pynchon-agnostics).  Lots of people I know say things such as "I'm not  
>>>religious, but I still think there's some sort of intelligence out there."  I  
>>>don't think they mean it in the Arthur C. Clarke sense, but more in a  
>>>spiritual-lite fear of there not being some sort of overriding moral force  
>>>guiding all that we do.  Personally, I'm an atheist:  there's no god, but if you  
>>>want to be religious, shut the fuck up about it!  Laura   -----Original 
>>>Message----- >From: Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> >Sent: Jun 27, 2012 
>>>10:41 AM >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org> >Subject: List of agnostics > 
>>>>Thomas Pynchon, (born 1937): Catholic-raised author of The Crying of >Lot 49 
>>>and Gravity's Rainbow. According to former friend, Jules >Siegel, "he went to 
>>>mass and confessed, though to what would be a >mystery." > 
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics#Authors  
>>>
>>
>

-- 
"Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all creeds the 
warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the trust in reason is a 
precarious faith, and that we are all fragments of darkness groping for the sun. 
I know no more about the ultimates than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- 
Will Durant
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