List of agnostics

[Lemuel Underwing]

Is it really so much to ask that we talk about Pynchon? I have not offered
much (I tried to start a reading of M&D) because frankly I'm not sure that
this list is anything more than a bunch of bloviating personalities.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 8:58 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> You offer little, but you ask so much.  And all the while you pretend to
> have wisdom.  I see no there where you are, untill you offer more.
>
> David Morris
>
>
> On Thursday, June 28, 2012, Lemuel Underwing wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
>> Date: Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 7:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>> To: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Malignd, you will forgive me if I have attempted to decide what you
>> can or cannot post but I hope you see my point, the religious (or
>> nonreligious) beliefs of the PList are agonizingly boring. Who cares? Only
>> those who wish to Pontificate at length some venomous twaddle.
>> If you really want to have such an argument outside of the context of
>> Pynchon should you not go elsewhere?
>> This is the *Pynchon* List, no?
>> Mr. Greenlief, do yourself a favor and finish M&D, it is my current
>> opinion, to the chagrin of others on this list, that this is Pynchon's most
>> poetic novel.
>>
>> Mr. Mackin & Mr Morris you make interesting points. Much of the
>> 'spiritualism' in GR (and M&D for that matter) ought to be taken with a
>> grain of salt, Dixon's Ley Lines, Peter Redztinger's (sp?) personal Jesus &
>> his Golems, the Old Hell-Cat of Raby Castle come to mind... Yet Mason, ever
>> the Melancholy Deist, does seem to adapt some of these Mythologizing
>> inclinations, not out of belief in them, but rather as stories or myths to
>> amiably pass the time on his own in Ireland or in the Frigid North.
>> Still, these are to be taken with a hint of Irony.
>> Yet what are we to make of the Frenchman's Duck? Dixon's Watch?
>> Is not the S-Gerat referred to as "mythical"? The folks at the
>> Movie-House at the very end might think of it as such.
>> The Duck is taken by the Crew as just another Frenchman's Fantasy until
>> it's presence becomes known along the Line, for instance.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>wrote:
>>
>>  On 6/28/2012 2:00 PM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:
>>
>> comrade lemuel asked if we might explore religion/faith/spirituality in
>> pynchon, and i've been musing on that ... here are some thoughts:
>>
>> i don't see any obvious reliance on, or confrontations with, faith in
>> pynchon
>>
>>
>> Spiritualism in GR is treated in a rather funny way.  On the one hand,
>> the seances are  among the various  often quite funny  quackeries that have
>> been assembled at White Visitation in the service of winning the war.  On
>> the other hand, there seem to be real connections made with the dead, and
>> of course the dead weren't always dead--their lives are part of the story
>> too.  So, a faith orientation serves as  a narrative device. Does this
>> count?
>>
>> Same with Dixon and Rebekah.
>>
>> Then there's Gnosticism.
>>
>> As far as spirituality is concerned, does spirituality involve faith in
>> the supernatural (like spiritualism does for some)?  Is seeing a soul in
>> every stone something that happens outside our mind.  Any suspension of the
>> laws of nature required? Probably not, therefore not part of the discusion.
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  (although, i'm ashamed to admit, i have never finished M&D, and i feel
>> there may be evidence there - alas!) in the way you see this process
>> explored in say, the films of ingmar bergman, where, in the 50's in
>> particular, he was often bumping up against the classic question, "god, why
>> have you forsaken me?" (as in SEVENTH SEAL, WINTER LIGHT, VIRGIN SPRING,
>> etc). nor do i see any obvious attempts to sum up spirituality - like you
>> get in his FANNY AND ALEXANDER, where the jewish merchant's son describes
>> (or, rather, quotes spinoza?) humanity and its deeds as "god's thought",
>> which is what his father believes; whereas he believes that we are "god's
>> nightmares".
>>
>> no, in pynchon, i find a strong tradition of existentialists, who mold
>> their own moral/ethical codes based on their experience and personal
>> history. sarte said (in his tract, EXISTENTIALISM IS A HUMANISM) it didn't
>> matter whether you are a believer or not, you could include religion as
>> just another tool in your toolkit that allows you to forge said moral code.
>> (ok, i'm paraphrasing!) but regardless, your actions are what defines you,
>> not your rhetoric.
>>
>> seems to me that slothrup, the traverse family, oedipa maas, doc
>> sportello and the rest of pynchon's heroes take on this task and deal with
>> what is on their plate. their deeds usually speak stronger than their
>> words. they are usually bumping up against foes whose rhetoric and actions
>> are, shall we say, sometimes not in perfect alignment.
>>
>> it does please me, as a native, that the one example that comes to mind
>> of a kind of loose portrayal of spirituality that (someone) was citing
>> yesterday that "we are all connected" is illustrated in AGAINST THE DAY in
>> the chapter where frank traverse ingests a peyote-like substance and has
>> classic shamanic visions. nice.
>>
>> without investigating further, that's all i can come up with off the
>> tattered cuff.
>>
>> phillip
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com>; "mali
>>
>>
>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20120628/32459a98/attachment.html>