Pynchons Problem

Wed Mar 14 14:12:37 CDT 2012

How about Iris Murdoch? A friend recommended The Black Prince.

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 1:04 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> I don't think it's so much about a woman integrating her life as it's an
> exploration of the role of the intellectual in 20th century politics -
> idealism vs. cynicism, honesty vs. ideology, whether it's possible to walk
> away from the politics that made you what you are - the golden-colored
> notebook is an attempt (whether successful or not) to resolve all this.  I
> agree, the politics are very dated; though the sexual politics are less
> dated, in my opinion.  I think the black notebook is the most interesting.
>  Lessing is an emotionally sterile writer.  As a result, she's not easy to
> read. Her characters relentlessly pick apart their feelings, as if
> dissecting an insect, looking for, I guess, signs of bad faith.  And some
> of the sections are plain tedious (particularly the Anna and Molly ones).
>  Martha Quest might be an easier (read: shorter) intro to Lessing (I've
> nagged my daughter, to no avail, to read it).
>
> Group reads, even of Pynchon novels, seem to founder here.  Actually, I've
> enjoyed Mike Jong's posts, because they've led to a sporadic group read of
> GR.  Maybe that's the best way to go.
>
> Laura
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >Sent: Mar 14, 2012 11:44 AM
> >To: Richard Ryan <himself at richardryan.com>, pynchon -l <
> pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
> >
> >Yes,  I tried to reread The Golden Notebook not too long ago and it just
> didn't sit like it did back when I read it first in the early 1970s (when I
> absolutely loved it!) .   Last year, TGN  had the same kind of slow, dated
> feel to it as The Recognitions (to me!)   Like what these characters were
> discussing and thinking about over and over,  sex with lovers, marriage,
>  UK style socialist politics,  moderate mental break-downs,  are rather
> moot points in today's life and today's lit.
> >
> > TGN is basically a middle-aged UK woman exploring her feelings about
> these things in her life in the late 1950s.  She is trying to put her life
> (which fell apart) back into an integrated whole from its component parts.
>   It's written in a kind of autobiographical style - (did this really
> happen to Lessing? - many  parts,  yes).   This openness was very hot stuff
> in the early 1960s and on into the late 1970s (or so) ?   It was NOT
> written as a feminist book - a women's lib book - or anything like that.
>  Lessing was a bit miffed that it was understood like that.   At this point
> I think it's more like historical literature than relevant to women (or
> men) of the 21st century.
> >
> >Why would we read it?   Because we want our thinking shaken again like
> this did to it then?    Well, imo,  TGN won't do that because women have
> been far more open about more things for many years.   Or do we read it
> because we want to see the history of today's thinking - where it came
> from?  That's more to the point of  what TGN is now.  In the '70s,   I
> totally identified with Anna as she tried to put her life together.
> >
> >The Golden Notebook accidentally opened up women's thinking,  and what
> was permissible to discuss,  in some ways similar to Virginia Woolf (and
> just as well, imo, perhaps more effectively at the time)  but in a
> different, more sexually charged era - and Lessing uses more political
> (anti-Stalinist) content.   The structure is rather interesting in that
> Anna has compartmentalized aspects of her life into different colored
> journals,  segments of which are interspersed through the book along with a
> novel Anna is writing.  The last chapter is the "Golden" one where all the
> colored segments come together.
> >
> >Anyway - here's an excerpt - it's like this for about 500 pages:
> >
> http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060931407/The_Golden_Notebook/excerpt.aspx
> >
> >Bekah
> >
> >On Mar 14, 2012, at 7:12 AM, Richard Ryan wrote:
> >
> >> I'm wary following our aborted Recognitions read - I'd suggest having
> >> a fully committed schedule of group regulars *before* we start (not
> >> having such was where I believe we went wrong with TR.)  Assuming that
> >> we attain a full roster of hosts for TGN, I would be happy to
> >> participate.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I'm in.
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 14, 2012 9:57 AM, "Mark Kohut" <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Could we get an enthusiastic plurality--or enough plisters---to want
> to do
> >>>> a group read of THIS
> >>>>  great novel?
> >>>>
> >>>> From: "kelber at mindspring.com" <kelber at mindspring.com>
> >>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:54 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
> >>>>
> >>>> The Golden Notebook.
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Keith Davis
> >>>> Sent: Mar 14, 2012 9:48 AM
> >>>> To: kelber at mindspring.com
> >>>> Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
> >>>>
> >>>> Recommend one for me.
> >>>> On Mar 14, 2012 9:38 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Excellent post about the missing heroines. Bekah!  Women do seem
> better
> >>>> represented in the less-literary, more plot-driven genre of crime
> fiction
> >>>> (which I don't read, because I find it contrived - though I loved
> Nancy Drew
> >>>> as a kid).  And, of course, all those unspeakable romances,
> Harlequins,
> >>>> etc., which are written specifically for women.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I like about Lessing's heroines is that they're intellectual and
> >>>> sexual.  Tempestuous they're not, nor even overly emotional, which may
> >>>> explain why they don't fit into the Bovary/O'Hara/Karenina mold.
> Honestly,
> >>>> though, they seem very real to me.  My mother was very much like them
> - she
> >>>> read avidly, and slept around in her younger days - and it was mother
> who
> >>>> insisted I read Lessing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Laura
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Keith Davis
> >>>> Sent: Mar 14, 2012 8:04 AM
> >>>> To: Bekah
> >>>> Cc: James Kyllo , pynchon -l , rich
> >>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
> >>>>
> >>>> Great. Soon to read Possession. Good discussion.
> >>>> On Mar 14, 2012 1:46 AM, "Bekah" <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> First,  I had no inclination to "dis"   male writers about anything.
>   The
> >>>> post which said  Oedipa Maas could be Daisy Bucchanan's daughter
> started me
> >>>> thinking.  My head went,  "Yeah?  Well... which contemporary women
> >>>> characters are well-written then?"   I couldn't really think of any.
>  I can
> >>>> think of plenty of classics with strong and wonderfully well-written
>  women
> >>>> characters in them,  but contemporary?   Is a strong woman (as
> opposed to a
> >>>> sex object and/or a political statement)  out of fashion in books as
> much as
> >>>> in film?  Where are the Dorothea Brookes, the Isabel Archers,  the
> Emma
> >>>> Bovaries, the Scarlett O'Haras, the Anna Kareninas - etc?  Maybe I was
> >>>> missing them so I asked.  (Otoh,  maybe classic women characters
> aren't that
> >>>> different from what we have in contemporary literature - ? .)
> >>>>
> >>>> Then, albeit a bit late,   I started wondering what I meant by the
> phrase
> >>>> "well-written" meant.  (gads)     "Liberated" ?  Not necessarily -
> lots of
> >>>> stereotyped "liberated" women around in detective fiction.   Did it
> mean
> >>>> "rounded" ala Forster?   Did it mean "poetically" written?  Did it
> mean
> >>>> contextually meaningful or issue-driven characters - ?   I don't
> know.  So
> >>>> by default,  any of the above (and more) can count.  (heh)  Mine?
> >>>>
> >>>> Strong women / beautifully written:
> >>>>
> >>>> Wallace Stegner's Susan Ward in Angle of Repose
> >>>> Toni Morrison's women are generally great -
> >>>> A.S. Byatt writes excellent female characters
> >>>> As I Lay Dying by Faulkner - all the women in that one
> >>>> Yashmine Harcourt in Against the Day by TRP
> >>>>
> >>>> bekah
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 13, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Keith Davis wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Bekah, The paranoia set in because I thought you might be leading up
> to
> >>>>> suggesting that male authors weren't writing good female characters.
> >>>>> I'd like to know what female characters you like, besides the ones
> you
> >>>>> mentioned.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 13, 2012 2:07 PM, "rich" <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Pat Barker's WW1 trilogy works on just about every level--war
> reporting,
> >>>>> history, female emancipation, and of course as wonderful fiction
> >>>>>
> >>>>> rich
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 1:37 PM, James Kyllo <jkyllo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Erica Tate (Alison Lurie - War Between the Tates) ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> J
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>> Who,  in y'all's  opinion,  is a well-written female character of the
> >>>>> post-WWII era  - use any author, any book.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bekah
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> http://www.last.fm/user/Auto_Da_Fe
> >>>>> http://www.pop.nu/en/show_collection.asp?user=2412
> >>>>> http://www.librarything.com/profile/Auto_Da_Fe
> >>>>> http://www.thedetails.co.uk/
> >>>>> http://www.songkick.com/users/Auto_Da_Fe
> >>>>> http://big-game.tumblr.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard Ryan
> >> New York and the World
> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround
> >> him. The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself.
> >> All progress depends on the unreasonable man." - Shaw
> >
>
>

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