[Bulk] Re: Pynchons Problem
Tom Beshear
tbeshear at att.net
Wed Mar 14 14:38:48 CDT 2012
The Black Prince is a fine read, though her protagonist is a man, so I don't know how well it fits into the original discussion.
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Davis
To: kelber at mindspring.com
Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:12 PM
Subject: [Bulk] Re: Pynchons Problem
How about Iris Murdoch? A friend recommended The Black Prince.
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 1:04 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
I don't think it's so much about a woman integrating her life as it's an exploration of the role of the intellectual in 20th century politics - idealism vs. cynicism, honesty vs. ideology, whether it's possible to walk away from the politics that made you what you are - the golden-colored notebook is an attempt (whether successful or not) to resolve all this. I agree, the politics are very dated; though the sexual politics are less dated, in my opinion. I think the black notebook is the most interesting. Lessing is an emotionally sterile writer. As a result, she's not easy to read. Her characters relentlessly pick apart their feelings, as if dissecting an insect, looking for, I guess, signs of bad faith. And some of the sections are plain tedious (particularly the Anna and Molly ones). Martha Quest might be an easier (read: shorter) intro to Lessing (I've nagged my daughter, to no avail, to read it).
Group reads, even of Pynchon novels, seem to founder here. Actually, I've enjoyed Mike Jong's posts, because they've led to a sporadic group read of GR. Maybe that's the best way to go.
Laura
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Mar 14, 2012 11:44 AM
>To: Richard Ryan <himself at richardryan.com>, pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
>
>Yes, I tried to reread The Golden Notebook not too long ago and it just didn't sit like it did back when I read it first in the early 1970s (when I absolutely loved it!) . Last year, TGN had the same kind of slow, dated feel to it as The Recognitions (to me!) Like what these characters were discussing and thinking about over and over, sex with lovers, marriage, UK style socialist politics, moderate mental break-downs, are rather moot points in today's life and today's lit.
>
> TGN is basically a middle-aged UK woman exploring her feelings about these things in her life in the late 1950s. She is trying to put her life (which fell apart) back into an integrated whole from its component parts. It's written in a kind of autobiographical style - (did this really happen to Lessing? - many parts, yes). This openness was very hot stuff in the early 1960s and on into the late 1970s (or so) ? It was NOT written as a feminist book - a women's lib book - or anything like that. Lessing was a bit miffed that it was understood like that. At this point I think it's more like historical literature than relevant to women (or men) of the 21st century.
>
>Why would we read it? Because we want our thinking shaken again like this did to it then? Well, imo, TGN won't do that because women have been far more open about more things for many years. Or do we read it because we want to see the history of today's thinking - where it came from? That's more to the point of what TGN is now. In the '70s, I totally identified with Anna as she tried to put her life together.
>
>The Golden Notebook accidentally opened up women's thinking, and what was permissible to discuss, in some ways similar to Virginia Woolf (and just as well, imo, perhaps more effectively at the time) but in a different, more sexually charged era - and Lessing uses more political (anti-Stalinist) content. The structure is rather interesting in that Anna has compartmentalized aspects of her life into different colored journals, segments of which are interspersed through the book along with a novel Anna is writing. The last chapter is the "Golden" one where all the colored segments come together.
>
>Anyway - here's an excerpt - it's like this for about 500 pages:
>http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060931407/The_Golden_Notebook/excerpt.aspx
>
>Bekah
>
>On Mar 14, 2012, at 7:12 AM, Richard Ryan wrote:
>
>> I'm wary following our aborted Recognitions read - I'd suggest having
>> a fully committed schedule of group regulars *before* we start (not
>> having such was where I believe we went wrong with TR.) Assuming that
>> we attain a full roster of hosts for TGN, I would be happy to
>> participate.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm in.
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2012 9:57 AM, "Mark Kohut" <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Could we get an enthusiastic plurality--or enough plisters---to want to do
>>>> a group read of THIS
>>>> great novel?
>>>>
>>>> From: "kelber at mindspring.com" <kelber at mindspring.com>
>>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:54 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
>>>>
>>>> The Golden Notebook.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Keith Davis
>>>> Sent: Mar 14, 2012 9:48 AM
>>>> To: kelber at mindspring.com
>>>> Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
>>>>
>>>> Recommend one for me.
>>>> On Mar 14, 2012 9:38 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Excellent post about the missing heroines. Bekah! Women do seem better
>>>> represented in the less-literary, more plot-driven genre of crime fiction
>>>> (which I don't read, because I find it contrived - though I loved Nancy Drew
>>>> as a kid). And, of course, all those unspeakable romances, Harlequins,
>>>> etc., which are written specifically for women.
>>>>
>>>> What I like about Lessing's heroines is that they're intellectual and
>>>> sexual. Tempestuous they're not, nor even overly emotional, which may
>>>> explain why they don't fit into the Bovary/O'Hara/Karenina mold. Honestly,
>>>> though, they seem very real to me. My mother was very much like them - she
>>>> read avidly, and slept around in her younger days - and it was mother who
>>>> insisted I read Lessing.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Keith Davis
>>>> Sent: Mar 14, 2012 8:04 AM
>>>> To: Bekah
>>>> Cc: James Kyllo , pynchon -l , rich
>>>> Subject: Re: Pynchons Problem
>>>>
>>>> Great. Soon to read Possession. Good discussion.
>>>> On Mar 14, 2012 1:46 AM, "Bekah" <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> First, I had no inclination to "dis" male writers about anything. The
>>>> post which said Oedipa Maas could be Daisy Bucchanan's daughter started me
>>>> thinking. My head went, "Yeah? Well... which contemporary women
>>>> characters are well-written then?" I couldn't really think of any. I can
>>>> think of plenty of classics with strong and wonderfully well-written women
>>>> characters in them, but contemporary? Is a strong woman (as opposed to a
>>>> sex object and/or a political statement) out of fashion in books as much as
>>>> in film? Where are the Dorothea Brookes, the Isabel Archers, the Emma
>>>> Bovaries, the Scarlett O'Haras, the Anna Kareninas - etc? Maybe I was
>>>> missing them so I asked. (Otoh, maybe classic women characters aren't that
>>>> different from what we have in contemporary literature - ? .)
>>>>
>>>> Then, albeit a bit late, I started wondering what I meant by the phrase
>>>> "well-written" meant. (gads) "Liberated" ? Not necessarily - lots of
>>>> stereotyped "liberated" women around in detective fiction. Did it mean
>>>> "rounded" ala Forster? Did it mean "poetically" written? Did it mean
>>>> contextually meaningful or issue-driven characters - ? I don't know. So
>>>> by default, any of the above (and more) can count. (heh) Mine?
>>>>
>>>> Strong women / beautifully written:
>>>>
>>>> Wallace Stegner's Susan Ward in Angle of Repose
>>>> Toni Morrison's women are generally great -
>>>> A.S. Byatt writes excellent female characters
>>>> As I Lay Dying by Faulkner - all the women in that one
>>>> Yashmine Harcourt in Against the Day by TRP
>>>>
>>>> bekah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 13, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Keith Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bekah, The paranoia set in because I thought you might be leading up to
>>>>> suggesting that male authors weren't writing good female characters.
>>>>> I'd like to know what female characters you like, besides the ones you
>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 13, 2012 2:07 PM, "rich" <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Pat Barker's WW1 trilogy works on just about every level--war reporting,
>>>>> history, female emancipation, and of course as wonderful fiction
>>>>>
>>>>> rich
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 1:37 PM, James Kyllo <jkyllo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Erica Tate (Alison Lurie - War Between the Tates) ?
>>>>>
>>>>> J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> Who, in y'all's opinion, is a well-written female character of the
>>>>> post-WWII era - use any author, any book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bekah
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://www.last.fm/user/Auto_Da_Fe
>>>>> http://www.pop.nu/en/show_collection.asp?user=2412
>>>>> http://www.librarything.com/profile/Auto_Da_Fe
>>>>> http://www.thedetails.co.uk/
>>>>> http://www.songkick.com/users/Auto_Da_Fe
>>>>> http://big-game.tumblr.com/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard Ryan
>> New York and the World
>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround
>> him. The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself.
>> All progress depends on the unreasonable man." - Shaw
>
--
www.innergroovemusic.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20120314/6ab968fa/attachment.html>
More information about the Pynchon-l
mailing list