Today's discussion question

Thu Aug 22 11:09:20 CDT 2013

 Over 5000 US deaths in Iraq and 10s of thousands of life impairing injuries, something like 100,000 non combatant Iraqis,  a shitload of radioactive materials causing  hundreds of birth defects and ruined lives. Vietnam, people being starved in Iran and Iraq, WW1, WW2. How long a list do you want?
On Aug 21, 2013, at 5:27 PM, MalignD at aol.com wrote:

> I don't know to whom you refer ...??  
> E
> ven the most technically advanced modern cultures still sacrifice the young for 
> idiotic lies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:03 am
> Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> 
> Even the most technically advanced modern cultures still sacrifice the young for 
> idiotic lies. The humanity of the high priests of culture has always been a 
> crapshoot.  Your idea that anyone who has a different frame of technological 
> reference has nothing they could teach you was shared by the crew of the 
> Franklin polar expedition who refused the maps and aid of Inuit people and 
> perished.  
> Currently we are faced with a global ecological crisis founded in our own 
> technologies and habitual addictions and some pretty stupid presumptions. One of 
> the most intriguing alternative paths is permaculture which is largely drawn 
> from tribal patterns of survival through the knowledge and cultivation of local 
> resources,  combined with science and technology. That seems a legitimate 
> example of mutual respectful interaction. 
> 
> As far as "we" knowing so much, I'm not so sure.  How many of 'us' could 
> design/build an ac power plant, a computer, a cell phone, an electric motor or 
> refrigerator. Most people, probably 90 to 99 percent really don't know enough to 
> do so, though many have some small subset of such knowledge.  There is something 
> slightly false about crediting ourselves with the cumulative benefits of 
> scientific qnd technological inquiry.  
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:43 PM, 
> MalignD at aol.com
>  wrote:
> 
> > "Proud vaunting"?  "False pride"?  Please.  We know a thousand times more now 
> than we did a thousand years ago.  That's simply true.  Certainly people weren't 
> stupider, but the idea that their ignorance provided a shortcut to some deeper 
> truth is romantic silliness.  They sacrificed animals, virgins, children as a 
> result of their "knowledge."  Later, they leeched the humors from people, racked 
> and burned people for superstitious heresies.  Etc., etc.
> > 
> > It was a stunning achievement, once, to lash a sharp stone to a tree limb and 
> make a spear.  But you think the person who did that has lessons to teach us.  I 
> don't.
> > 
> > "Halliburton of the holy house of halitosis."
> > 
> > 
> > I'm still laughing over that ...
> > 
> >  
> > This proud vaunting of ones culture, knowledge and modernness as displaying a 
> > superior mentality is something I see as false pride. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph Tracy <
> brook7 at sover.net
> >
> > To: P-list List <
> pynchon-l at waste.org
> >
> > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 1:13 pm
> > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > 
> > This proud vaunting of ones culture, knowledge and modernness as displaying a 
> > superior mentality is something I see as false pride. No matter how far back 
> in 
> > any culture one goes there are stunning technical achievements, beautiful, 
> > subtle and relevant poetry and a fulsome array of all that is human and 
> > delightful along with what is dark and cruel. I see little evidence that our 
> > technical abilities have freed us from cruel military empires, idiotic lies 
> etc.  
> > Long life? What is the glory of vast numbers of fat TV watchers waiting for 
> > death. 
> > 
> > As far as moderns wanting experience and reliable information over dogmatic 
> > constructs, come again? Facts like evil Iraqis with weapons of mass 
> destruction, 
> > weapons of mass destruction , weapons of mass destruction, weapons of mass 
> > destruction.  Facts like a world suddenly filled with terrorists and requiring 
> 
> > the imperial suspension of civil rights.  Facts like Fracking is perfectly 
> safe, 
> > here, have a drink. The invisible hand of the marketplace is even now ending 
> > hunger and making the world better every minute; that isn't dogma, thats true 
> as 
> > even now Democracy spreads throughout the middle east with her friendly 
> > handmaidens dronella, starvation sanctionlalla, and Halliburton of the holy 
> > house of halitosis. I too am proud to be a modern man. Have a high powered 
> > semi-automatic my child. It is your precious birthright and the solidest of 
> > facts. It comes with a credit card backed by Ben Bernanke's personal 
> > endorsement. Spend freely and kill with pride for thou art blessed with stars 
> > and stripes up every fucking orifice. 
> > 
> > On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:05 PM, 
> > 
> MalignD at aol.com
> 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > It always strikes me that, when people speak of the ancient wisdom they 
> > picture elders and sages, wise and wizened men possessed of some deep, now 
> lost, 
> > knowledge.
> > > 
> > > These were bronze age people with little but superstition to direct them 
> past 
> > their ignorance and fear and most of them were dead before they were fifty. 
> > > no ancient or
> > > childlike trust in the elders or the prophets or whatever the sages of
> > > old handed down, what the scibes writ will do.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Morris <
> > 
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> 
> > >
> > > To: alice wellintown <
> > 
> alicewellintown at gmail.com
> 
> > >
> > > Cc: pynchon -l <
> > 
> pynchon-l at waste.org
> 
> > >
> > > Sent: Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:01 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > 
> > > Well said, Alice.  AND so succinct!  Huzzah!
> > > 
> > > On Friday, August 16, 2013, alice wellintown wrote:
> > > He will never encounter anything that will persuade you, MalignD, but
> > > he may have an experience that will, as it has others, persuade him.
> > > Of course, such experiences are the foundation of modern adaptatons of
> > > traditional religions. In other words, an immediate awareness of
> > > relation with a decine presense or mysticism.
> > > 
> > > Because modern peoples are weary of ancient traditions, and because
> > > modern peoples have built and discovered modern ways, no ancient or
> > > childlike trust in the elders or the prophets or whatever the sages of
> > > old handed down, what the scibes writ will do. We want facts. We don't
> > > want authority. We want experience not dogmatic constructs. So the
> > > mystical religion, that is, religion grounded in experience. So, if
> > > one looks for evidence of reincarnation or resurrection or grace, one
> > > may find it in experience.
> > > 
> > > Will it ever happen for for YOU?
> > > 
> > > Not even MalignD can can say.
> > > 
> > >  8/16/13, 
> > 
> malignd at aol.com <malignd at aol.com
> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Nor will you.
> > > >
> > > > I've never encountered anything like persuasive evidence of reincarnation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ian Livingston <
> > 
> igrlivingston at gmail.com
> 
> > >
> > > > To: David Morris <
> > 
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> 
> > >
> > > > Cc: Bekah <
> > 
> bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>; malignd <malignd at aol.com
> 
> > >; pynchon-l
> > > > <
> > 
> pynchon-l at waste.org
> 
> > >
> > > > Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 9:44 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, the (Tibetan Mahayana) Buddhist model is not limited to this world.
> > > > There are myriad other worlds in Samsara. We're only passing through this
> > > > one, en route to eventual enlightenment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've never encountered anything like persuasive evidence of reincarnation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 6:33 PM, David Morris <
> > 
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would like to see a math model of just the human accounting on how the
> > > > present exploding population works with retreaded souls as a ratio of new 
> to
> > > > old.  There must be a huge source of new human souls yet to go spinning on
> > > > this Merry-Go-Round.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Bekah  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If reincarnation is true there are a whole lot of dead people waiting for
> > > > another shot at life - either that or they've come back as cockroaches -  
> in
> > > > which case I suspect we have extra lives coming from somewhere.
> > > >
> > > > I just don't see how the accounting works out.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > 
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead
> 
> > 
> > > >
> > > > Bek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Morris <
> > 
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> The concept of reincarnation long predates the advent of Buddhism in
> > > >> India.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't find it useful, since access to lessons learned in a previous
> > > >> lives isn't common nor plausible when through hypnosis people recall 
> being
> > > >> Napoleon or Cleopatra. If there is a kernel of truth in the concept of
> > > >> reincarnation it seems to me useful as a way to understand inherent
> > > >> knowledge, instincts, in every living being, passed on via eons of
> > > >> evolution. Collective Conciousness?
> > > >>
> > > >> David Morris
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thursday, August 15, 2013, wrote:
> > > >> It's not remotely plausible.  Where would you suggest this "knowledge"
> > > >> comes from?
> > > >> The idea that the Tibetans
> > > >> know something in regard to reincarnation that we don't seems perfectly
> > > >> plausible.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Joseph Tracy <
> > 
> brook7 at sover.net
> 
> > >
> > > >> To: P-list List <
> > 
> pynchon-l at waste.org
> 
> > >
> > > >> Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 11:16 am
> > > >> Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > >>
> > > >> Unless it is true. This idea has been around for a long time and has had
> > > >> some
> > > >> non bubble headed proponents who may perceive things unseen by a certain
> > > >> kind of
> > > >> logic. I am agnostic on all questions that seek to definitively describe
> > > >> other
> > > >> dimensions of experience, but some of my own experiences have kept me
> > > >> from
> > > >> closing the door on this and I do not find that leaving the question open
> > > >> induces any more bubble headedness than watching TV. The idea that the
> > > >> Tibetans
> > > >> know something in regard to reincarnation
> > 
> > 
> 
> 