Today's discussion question

Thu Aug 22 11:21:18 CDT 2013

Yes, Joseph, I think you touch on a dialectic I've been thinking about some
lately, namely that between Santayana and Sting. If failure to learn from
the lessons of history necessitates repetition of the lessons, is it true
that history will teach us nothing? I mean, is history an ethics course?
What is the "end of history?" Can history be said to have an objective, or
to be describing an arc (a rainbow?) of some mythic journey begun in the
caves of Africa and concluding over the surface of the globe? Was Stephen
Dedalus right in seeking to escape the past through self-abuse? Can we
approach any of these questions with pride leading us into the inquiry? Can
the humiliation of our failures sensitize us to a more qualified study? Are
we just a lot of egomaniacs with inferiority complexes? I mean, really, how
can we hope to negotiate the mess we've made without developing, as you
say, some sort of genuine humility? And can religion teach us humility? Can
philosophy? science? psychology? Can any institution lead us humbly into
the work at hand? Or is it up to us, each and all? Is education the way
through, or the cessation of education?

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

>  Over 5000 US deaths in Iraq and 10s of thousands of life impairing
> injuries, something like 100,000 non combatant Iraqis,  a shitload of
> radioactive materials causing  hundreds of birth defects and ruined lives.
> Vietnam, people being starved in Iran and Iraq, WW1, WW2. How long a list
> do you want?
> On Aug 21, 2013, at 5:27 PM, MalignD at aol.com wrote:
>
> > I don't know to whom you refer ...??
> > E
> > ven the most technically advanced modern cultures still sacrifice the
> young for
> > idiotic lies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> > To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:03 am
> > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> >
> > Even the most technically advanced modern cultures still sacrifice the
> young for
> > idiotic lies. The humanity of the high priests of culture has always
> been a
> > crapshoot.  Your idea that anyone who has a different frame of
> technological
> > reference has nothing they could teach you was shared by the crew of the
> > Franklin polar expedition who refused the maps and aid of Inuit people
> and
> > perished.
> > Currently we are faced with a global ecological crisis founded in our own
> > technologies and habitual addictions and some pretty stupid
> presumptions. One of
> > the most intriguing alternative paths is permaculture which is largely
> drawn
> > from tribal patterns of survival through the knowledge and cultivation
> of local
> > resources,  combined with science and technology. That seems a legitimate
> > example of mutual respectful interaction.
> >
> > As far as "we" knowing so much, I'm not so sure.  How many of 'us' could
> > design/build an ac power plant, a computer, a cell phone, an electric
> motor or
> > refrigerator. Most people, probably 90 to 99 percent really don't know
> enough to
> > do so, though many have some small subset of such knowledge.  There is
> something
> > slightly false about crediting ourselves with the cumulative benefits of
> > scientific qnd technological inquiry.
> > On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:43 PM,
> > MalignD at aol.com
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > "Proud vaunting"?  "False pride"?  Please.  We know a thousand times
> more now
> > than we did a thousand years ago.  That's simply true.  Certainly people
> weren't
> > stupider, but the idea that their ignorance provided a shortcut to some
> deeper
> > truth is romantic silliness.  They sacrificed animals, virgins, children
> as a
> > result of their "knowledge."  Later, they leeched the humors from
> people, racked
> > and burned people for superstitious heresies.  Etc., etc.
> > >
> > > It was a stunning achievement, once, to lash a sharp stone to a tree
> limb and
> > make a spear.  But you think the person who did that has lessons to
> teach us.  I
> > don't.
> > >
> > > "Halliburton of the holy house of halitosis."
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm still laughing over that ...
> > >
> > >
> > > This proud vaunting of ones culture, knowledge and modernness as
> displaying a
> > > superior mentality is something I see as false pride.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joseph Tracy <
> > brook7 at sover.net
> > >
> > > To: P-list List <
> > pynchon-l at waste.org
> > >
> > > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 1:13 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > >
> > > This proud vaunting of ones culture, knowledge and modernness as
> displaying a
> > > superior mentality is something I see as false pride. No matter how
> far back
> > in
> > > any culture one goes there are stunning technical achievements,
> beautiful,
> > > subtle and relevant poetry and a fulsome array of all that is human and
> > > delightful along with what is dark and cruel. I see little evidence
> that our
> > > technical abilities have freed us from cruel military empires, idiotic
> lies
> > etc.
> > > Long life? What is the glory of vast numbers of fat TV watchers
> waiting for
> > > death.
> > >
> > > As far as moderns wanting experience and reliable information over
> dogmatic
> > > constructs, come again? Facts like evil Iraqis with weapons of mass
> > destruction,
> > > weapons of mass destruction , weapons of mass destruction, weapons of
> mass
> > > destruction.  Facts like a world suddenly filled with terrorists and
> requiring
> >
> > > the imperial suspension of civil rights.  Facts like Fracking is
> perfectly
> > safe,
> > > here, have a drink. The invisible hand of the marketplace is even now
> ending
> > > hunger and making the world better every minute; that isn't dogma,
> thats true
> > as
> > > even now Democracy spreads throughout the middle east with her friendly
> > > handmaidens dronella, starvation sanctionlalla, and Halliburton of the
> holy
> > > house of halitosis. I too am proud to be a modern man. Have a high
> powered
> > > semi-automatic my child. It is your precious birthright and the
> solidest of
> > > facts. It comes with a credit card backed by Ben Bernanke's personal
> > > endorsement. Spend freely and kill with pride for thou art blessed
> with stars
> > > and stripes up every fucking orifice.
> > >
> > > On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:05 PM,
> > >
> > MalignD at aol.com
> >
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > It always strikes me that, when people speak of the ancient wisdom
> they
> > > picture elders and sages, wise and wizened men possessed of some deep,
> now
> > lost,
> > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > These were bronze age people with little but superstition to direct
> them
> > past
> > > their ignorance and fear and most of them were dead before they were
> fifty.
> > > > no ancient or
> > > > childlike trust in the elders or the prophets or whatever the sages
> of
> > > > old handed down, what the scibes writ will do.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: David Morris <
> > >
> > fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> > > >
> > > > To: alice wellintown <
> > >
> > alicewellintown at gmail.com
> >
> > > >
> > > > Cc: pynchon -l <
> > >
> > pynchon-l at waste.org
> >
> > > >
> > > > Sent: Fri, Aug 16, 2013 10:01 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > >
> > > > Well said, Alice.  AND so succinct!  Huzzah!
> > > >
> > > > On Friday, August 16, 2013, alice wellintown wrote:
> > > > He will never encounter anything that will persuade you, MalignD, but
> > > > he may have an experience that will, as it has others, persuade him.
> > > > Of course, such experiences are the foundation of modern adaptatons
> of
> > > > traditional religions. In other words, an immediate awareness of
> > > > relation with a decine presense or mysticism.
> > > >
> > > > Because modern peoples are weary of ancient traditions, and because
> > > > modern peoples have built and discovered modern ways, no ancient or
> > > > childlike trust in the elders or the prophets or whatever the sages
> of
> > > > old handed down, what the scibes writ will do. We want facts. We
> don't
> > > > want authority. We want experience not dogmatic constructs. So the
> > > > mystical religion, that is, religion grounded in experience. So, if
> > > > one looks for evidence of reincarnation or resurrection or grace, one
> > > > may find it in experience.
> > > >
> > > > Will it ever happen for for YOU?
> > > >
> > > > Not even MalignD can can say.
> > > >
> > > >  8/16/13,
> > >
> > malignd at aol.com <malignd at aol.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Nor will you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've never encountered anything like persuasive evidence of
> reincarnation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ian Livingston <
> > >
> > igrlivingston at gmail.com
> >
> > > >
> > > > > To: David Morris <
> > >
> > fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Cc: Bekah <
> > >
> > bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>; malignd <malignd at aol.com
> >
> > > >; pynchon-l
> > > > > <
> > >
> > pynchon-l at waste.org
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 9:44 pm
> > > > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, the (Tibetan Mahayana) Buddhist model is not limited to this
> world.
> > > > > There are myriad other worlds in Samsara. We're only passing
> through this
> > > > > one, en route to eventual enlightenment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I've never encountered anything like persuasive evidence of
> reincarnation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 6:33 PM, David Morris <
> > >
> > fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to see a math model of just the human accounting on
> how the
> > > > > present exploding population works with retreaded souls as a ratio
> of new
> > to
> > > > > old.  There must be a huge source of new human souls yet to go
> spinning on
> > > > > this Merry-Go-Round.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Bekah  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If reincarnation is true there are a whole lot of dead people
> waiting for
> > > > > another shot at life - either that or they've come back as
> cockroaches -
> > in
> > > > > which case I suspect we have extra lives coming from somewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just don't see how the accounting works out.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead
> >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bek
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Aug 15, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Morris <
> > >
> > fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> The concept of reincarnation long predates the advent of Buddhism
> in
> > > > >> India.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't find it useful, since access to lessons learned in a
> previous
> > > > >> lives isn't common nor plausible when through hypnosis people
> recall
> > being
> > > > >> Napoleon or Cleopatra. If there is a kernel of truth in the
> concept of
> > > > >> reincarnation it seems to me useful as a way to understand
> inherent
> > > > >> knowledge, instincts, in every living being, passed on via eons of
> > > > >> evolution. Collective Conciousness?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> David Morris
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thursday, August 15, 2013, wrote:
> > > > >> It's not remotely plausible.  Where would you suggest this
> "knowledge"
> > > > >> comes from?
> > > > >> The idea that the Tibetans
> > > > >> know something in regard to reincarnation that we don't seems
> perfectly
> > > > >> plausible.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Joseph Tracy <
> > >
> > brook7 at sover.net
> >
> > > >
> > > > >> To: P-list List <
> > >
> > pynchon-l at waste.org
> >
> > > >
> > > > >> Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 11:16 am
> > > > >> Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Unless it is true. This idea has been around for a long time and
> has had
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> non bubble headed proponents who may perceive things unseen by a
> certain
> > > > >> kind of
> > > > >> logic. I am agnostic on all questions that seek to definitively
> describe
> > > > >> other
> > > > >> dimensions of experience, but some of my own experiences have
> kept me
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> closing the door on this and I do not find that leaving the
> question open
> > > > >> induces any more bubble headedness than watching TV. The idea
> that the
> > > > >> Tibetans
> > > > >> know something in regard to reincarnation
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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